Rape By Migrants Isn't As Bad.

[betsy]

Imagine if you asked a friend to come over and help clean your house, and they came over - but while there, they broke all your stuff. You'd be pissed, eh? Maybe so pissed that you'd want to beat up your friend. Of course, your friend could act all surprised - "Why are you mad at me? You invited me over, and I did the best I could! Your house is cleaner isn't it?? Sorry your stuff got broke, but it's really not my fault - you shouldn't have left it out." Too many of us in the West are like that "friend"; unwilling to admit our own complicity in this situation, and pretending we're innocents being unfairly targeted.

It depends on why my friends broke up my stuffs. Was it an accident? Couldn't it be helped?

Of course I wouldn't be too happy about my broken stuff, but on the other hand I have to remind myself that I did ask them to come over to help me clean up my house.

As the friend who's only willing to help, yeah.....I'd be surprised if he (owner of the house) really make such a big deal about the broken stuff, after all it was him who asked me to come and help! I offered to make it up by giving him some other things in exchange, like helping him with the upkeep of his own house, and fighting to defend him when he's in trouble.

The moral of the story.....don't ask for help? In every shape or form?

Clean your own house the best you can, and make sure your mess doesn't go over to other people's property?

Don't join in any gang, or any group?

I suppose you're ready to abolish NATO?

Too many of us in the West are like that "friend"; unwilling to admit our own complicity in this situation, and pretending we're innocents being unfairly targeted.

That's a bs propaganda!

Edited July 17, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

You said Islam is dangerous. Does it make the billion people who consider themselves Muslim dangerous?

Depends if they're practicing Muslims.

Muslims who embraced the western lifestyle, are really no longer Muslims - they're already considered apostates. That's why they're targetted, too. Although they may claim to be Muslims, they aren't. They'd be just like someone who claims to be Christian, and yet doesn't follow the teachings of Christ.

Edited July 17, 2016 by betsy

[dialamah]

With due respect when you live in the Middle East and you see first hand how terrorists operate and how they recruit you would not write the above.

The above is based on a well meaning but completely inaccurate liberal guilt concept that in fact is quite imperialistic, colonialistic and patronizing and

and at its pith and substance depicts Arabs and Muslims as noble savages who lived peacefully until bad white men turned them on each other.

*Yawn* "Liberal Guilt", what a joke.

Terrorism is not something new. Raping and killing the innocent is now some reaction that only arose because some people think Christians or Jews were not nice to Muslims. Horse crap.

Agreed that humans have been violent throughout their history, and show no signs of slowing down. The West is included amont those humans, and they have effectively provided a common enemy for many of the people of the ME, through their manipulations and invasions in that region. Ignoring that fact, as if we're entirely innocent, ignores reality. Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bag, so to speak, and there's no going back that I can see.

[Rue]

Are the hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East getting what they deserved through the bombings and instability the West has created? What say you?

I'm sure a lot nicer things than when Harper was in power.

The people of the Middle East deserve better than the brand of terrorism and fundamental Islam you want them to embrace.

This has nothing to do with Harper's words. Stop looking for a scapegoat and take responsibility for what you embrace.

[dialamah]

Depends if they're practicing Muslims.

Muslims who embraced the western lifestyle, are really no longer Muslims - they're already considered apostates. That's why they're targetted, too. Although they may claim to be Muslims, they aren't. They'd be just like someone who claims to be Christian, and yet doesn't follow the teachings of Christ.

Of course, you'd side with the least humane faction of the Islamic Faith, just as you do with your Christian Faith. it seems that as far as you are concerned, the truly faithful are the ones who take the most judgemental, moralistic, unkind and unloving interpretation of their holy book - whether the Koran or the Bible, and seek to 'punish' all those who do not subscribe to the same interpretation. Christians at least are (usually) waiting for God to inflict that punishment; their Islamic counterparts are doing it in the here and now. Other than that, I find it hard to identify much different between conservative Christians and conservative Muslims.

[Rue]

Depends if they're practicing Muslims.

Muslims who embraced the western lifestyle, are really no longer Muslims - they're already considered apostates. That's why they're targetted, too. Although they may claim to be Muslims, they aren't. They'd be just like someone who claims to be Christian, and yet doesn't follow the teachings of Christ.

That happens within all organized religions as fundamentalist sects reject or scorn progressive or reformist factions.

Whether Islam as a whole can evolve past its inter sect wars is anyone's guess.

[marcus]

The people of the Middle East deserve better than the brand of terrorism and fundamental Islam you want them to embrace.

I don't want anyone to embrace any type of terrorism. Whether it's done by group of thugs and sociopaths like ISIS or done by States, like Israel.

Why do you pretend that terrorism and killings are only done by Muslims and not take responsibility for killings done by Jews and Christians. Islam does not have a monopoly on killing innocent people. One look at the thousands of people Israel has killed in Palestine and Lebanon and the hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed by Western militaries shows this to be a fact.

For you to sit there and try to excuse the West's role in the destabilization of the Middle East, Africa and even South America, thus, paving the road for groups like ISIS to come to be, is not surprising.

Edited July 17, 2016 by marcus

[Rue]

*Yawn* "Liberal Guilt", what a joke.

Agreed that humans have been violent throughout their history, and show no signs of slowing down. The West is included amont those humans, and they have effectively provided a common enemy for many of the people of the ME, through their manipulations and invasions in that region. Ignoring that fact, as if we're entirely innocent, ignores reality. Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bag, so to speak, and there's no going back that I can see.

Thanks. My response was meant as friendly feed back to you. You always take it that way. Thanks. Sheeyit Dia, hell is paved with good intentions and people in the name of their God intervening into societies to help the mighty savages. Y'all ask me everyone of us is a primal ape still learning to

control our primal savagery. To me its a human wide phenomena. I am not sure who is more evolved than others. I sometimes say to some

people like older Bhuddists or gurus they are more elightened and the best answer I got from one Monk is to whisper in my ear and say he still

shits and pisses like I do. Lol. You would be the first to tell me that too. Damn we make a mess in the name of our God(s).

[dialamah]

Thanks. My response was meant as friendly feed back to you. You always take it that way. Thanks. Sheeyit Dia, hell is paved with good intentions and people in the name of their God intervening into societies to help the mighty savages. Y'all ask me everyone of us is a primal ape still learning to

control our primal savagery. To me its a human wide phenomena. I am not sure who is more evolved than others. I sometimes say to some

people like older Bhuddists or gurus they are more elightened and the best answer I got from one Monk is to whisper in my ear and say he still

shits and pisses like I do. Lol. You would be the first to tell me that too. Damn we make a mess in the name of our God(s).

Yup, if I was inclined to follow any kind of religion, I think it might be Buddhism. I don't know much about it, did a very little reading some time ago, but it really does seem to focus on making oneself worthy, and assuming/allowing everyone else to be responsible for their own salvation. One thing about Islam that I like is that there is a teaching that Christianity and Judaism are valid paths to salvation - all part of the 'people' - shame that it's not a more widely known and practiced belief.

[betsy]

Of course, you'd side with the least humane faction of the Islamic Faith, just as you do with your Christian Faith. it seems that as far as you are concerned, the truly faithful are the ones who take the most judgemental, moralistic, unkind and unloving interpretation of their holy book - whether the Koran or the Bible, and seek to 'punish' all those who do not subscribe to the same interpretation. Christians at least are (usually) waiting for God to inflict that punishment; their Islamic counterparts are doing it in the here and now. Other than that, I find it hard to identify much different between conservative Christians and conservative Muslims.

Eh?

I'm simply stating a fact! Muslims who embrace the western culture would be considered apostates!

[betsy]

That happens within all organized religions as fundamentalist sects reject or scorn progressive or reformist factions.

If one doesn't follow the teachings (being fundamental).....what they claim to be, religion-wise, would be mere lip-service!

Muslim apostates can face the death penalty.

Edited July 17, 2016 by betsy

[dialamah]

Eh?

I'm simply stating a fact! Muslims who embrace the western culture would be considered apostates!

I know several Muslims who have 'embraced the Western culture' and are not considered apostates. Just like Christians in Western countries who go to church, pray, celebrate their religious traditions, and live according to their religious beliefs so do Muslims go to Mosque, pray, celebrate their religious traditions and live according to their religious beliefs.

[Argus]

Trust you to miss the point whilst pretending moderation. Some people would certainly choose to punish the whole family as a way to get back at the real culprit; humans can be nasty that way.

No, crazy people might be like that, and religious fanatics, but not regular people.

[Argus]

Are the hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East getting what they deserved through the bombings and instability the West has created? What say you?

As to Iraq, they had a chance for stability. They had elections. They chose to embrace sectarian hatred instead. As to Syria, that has nothing to do with the West.

[Argus]

You said Islam is dangerous. Does it make the billion people who consider themselves Muslim dangerous?

All religious fanatics are dangerous. Those who belong to a religion which condones the murder of infidels are even more dangerous.

[dialamah]

No, crazy people might be like that, and religious fanatics, but not regular people.

Exactly my point.

[scribblet]

Sounds like terrorism of a sort in Sweden, check this out, wear a headscarf or be raped....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3692181/Wear-headscarf-raped-Sick-messages-threatening-sex-attacks-women-posted-Swedish-town-stickers-demanding-democracy-replaced-Islam.html?

[Argus]

Agreed that humans have been violent throughout their history, and show no signs of slowing down. The West is included amont those humans, and they have effectively provided a common enemy for many of the people of the ME, through their manipulations and invasions in that region. Ignoring that fact, as if we're entirely innocent, ignores reality. Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bag, so to speak, and there's no going back that I can see.

Tell you what, how about we take all the hand-wringing, bleeding heart whiners who are desperate to take on guilt for what Muslims do to each other, and the decisions Muslims make, and the violence Muslims commit in the name of Islam, and air drop them into the middle east and let the Muslims kill them all? That would make the Muslims happy, and all the whiners would finally get their guilty consciences assuaged.

[dialamah]

All religious fanatics are dangerous. Those who belong to a religion which condones the murder of infidels are even more dangerous.

I think any fanatic is dangerous, whether religious or sectarian, whether their target is others of their faith, other faiths, homosexuals, black people, abortion providers, etc.

[dialamah]

Tell you what, how about we take all the hand-wringing, bleeding heart whiners who are desperate to take on guilt for what Muslims do to each other, and the decisions Muslims make, and the violence Muslims commit in the name of Islam, and air drop them into the middle east and let the Muslims kill them all? That would make the Muslims happy, and all the whiners would finally get their guilty consciences assuaged.

Honestly, I'd rather take all moral conservatives and members of every fundamental religion put them on their own Island, let them fight it out. Cause you know, they'd be at each other's throat about the "right* way, and/or who God says is right .... there's a great cartoon I saw about this the other day. Google "This land is mine" by Nina Paley.

Edited July 17, 2016 by dialamah

[marcus]

As to Iraq, they had a chance for stability. They had elections. They chose to embrace sectarian hatred instead. As to Syria, that has nothing to do with the West.

The people of Iraq did not choose to embrace sectarian hatred. That is such typical nonsense.

U.S.' actions in Iraq created a power vacuum where several different sects and outside parties began to fight over control and power. ISIS ended up coming on top, thanks to this power vacuum created and financial support from U.S. and Israel's good friend, Saudi.

As to Syria, the unrest has a lot to do with the West. It would help for you to learn a little about the region before making comments about it.

[Guest]

Trust you to miss the point whilst pretending moderation. Some people would certainly choose to punish the whole family as a way to get back at the real culprit; humans can be nasty that way.

Alternatively, perhaps the friend also accidentally knocked your kid over ... so you might think it's perfectly fine to knock their kid over in turn.

The point is that many Westerners refuse to acknowledge how the actions of the Western world have contributed to the Islamic terrorists we now have. This doesn't excuse terrorism, by the way; it is taking responsibility for our behavior. Something Republicans/Conservatives often accuse the left of refusing to do.

This whole pretending moderation thing is getting a bit tiresome. Still, people see what they want to see.

The point you made was not missed. It positively invited my response. It's not my fault if you post before you think.

There is no excuse for hurting people who didn't hurt you, regardless of what similar people might have done. That's what Islamophobia is, isn't it?

[Guest]

You said Islam is dangerous. Does it make the billion people who consider themselves Muslim dangerous?

Is Christianity dangerous? What about Judaism?

Only if they decide to interpret their holy doctrine in such a way that they hurt people. Same with Christianity and Judaism.

[dialamah]

Only if they decide to interpret their holy doctrine in such a way that they hurt people. Same with Christianity and Judaism.

So, when you said "Islam is dangerous", you misspoke, eh? Because over a billion Muslims choose to interpret Islam in a non-dangerous way. Over a billion Muslims who follow the religion of Islam neither practice nor condone terrorism.

This whole pretending moderation thing is getting a bit tiresome. Still, people see what they want to see.

You consistently deny that people who make sweeping generalizations are holding all Muslims responsible for the actions of a few; you claim that nobody on this forum ever makes a statement that implies (or outright states) that all Muslims are terrorists. When certain members say that if a Muslim isn't out committing terror, they aren't a true Muslim - not a word from you about such a sweeping and inaccurate statement. But let someone object to it, and there you are - "oh, they didn't mean "all Muslims".

Then you say "Islam is dangerous". None of the qualification you backtracked with later that all religions are dangerous depending on interpretation. If you don't want to be misunderstood, try employing a little bit of clarity in what you write - demonstrate that moderate and fair-minded perspective you claim you have. If you can't do that, admit your bias.

[Guest]

So, when you said "Islam is dangerous", you misspoke, eh? Because over a billion Muslims choose to interpret Islam in a non-dangerous way. Over a billion Muslims who follow the religion of Islam neither practice nor condone terrorism.

You consistently deny that people who make sweeping generalizations are holding all Muslims responsible for the actions of a few; you claim that nobody on this forum ever makes a statement that implies (or outright states) that all Muslims are terrorists. When certain members say that if a Muslim isn't out committing terror, they aren't a true Muslim - not a word from you about such a sweeping and inaccurate statement. But let someone object to it, and there you are - "oh, they didn't mean "all Muslims".

Then you say "Islam is dangerous". None of the qualification you backtracked with later that all religions are dangerous depending on interpretation. If you don't want to be misunderstood, try employing a little bit of clarity in what you write - demonstrate that moderate and fair-minded perspective you claim you have. If you can't do that, admit your bias.

Actually, I've argued at length about the difference between holding the abstract (Islam) responsible, as opposed to holding the individual who commits the act responsible. Eventually you stop. Ask DoP. We argued about it some time ago.

That said, Islam is dangerous. There's nothing extreme about that position. You've read all the posts so I don't need to reiterate what I mean by that. Except to say that those who interpret Islam in a non dangerous way actually prove my point.

If I ever backtrack I'll acknowledge it and apologise for my error. Maybe you could point out the error and the backtracking.