Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: It's a mixed bag...not all states are having new spikes after re-opening. Still waiting for deaths to spike, an important metric. Economies are re-opening. States like New York, New Jersey etc have no started to cautiously re-open even though they were hit the hardest. Europe is re-opening to international travel in July. Almost all of Ontario has started to re-open. It seems that places like Florida, Texas, California and Arizona that thought they had dodged the "first wave" are now seeing huge spikes not just in cases, but in hospitalization. As for deaths, the rate will drop as treatments come online and younger people get infected as opposed to people in LTC homes. The rate of hospitalization reaching capacity will eventually result in increased mortality. We're seeing risks of that all over the Southern US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Boges said: The rate of hospitalization reaching capacity will eventually result in increased mortality. We're seeing risks of that all over the Southern US. More deaths does not necessarily increase the mortality rate, as many more tests are being completed per day. The hospitalization strategy early on will give way to another, more aggressive stance with an acceptable level of misery vs. staying shut down. Younger people do not get sick and die at the same rate as the more vulnerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Younger people do not get sick and die at the same rate as the more vulnerable. No they don't. But they may still require hospitalization. And they'll have to stay home for a minimum 2 weeks. In some cases, they'll be out of work for over a month. (assuming they have a job). How's that going to effect the economy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Boges said: No they don't. But they may still require hospitalization. And they'll have to stay home for a minimum 2 weeks. In some cases, they'll be out of work for over a month. (assuming they have a job). The two-week thing is not uniformly enforced. I guess the main point is that the U.S. (at least) is beyond the initial total lockdown approach and will tolerate more COVID risks. Many have already been out of work for three months. Quote How's that going to effect the economy? No worse than it has already been impacted. COVID fatigue has set in and young people seem to be the least tolerant of continued restrictions. Open bars and drinking seem to be more important to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: The two-week thing is not uniformly enforced. It would be foolish to let a COVID-19 positive person into a workplace. People without paid sick-leave will feel this more than most. If you can't work from home, getting COVID-19 is very bad, even if it won't directly kill you. Quote I guess the main point is that the U.S. (at least) is beyond the initial total lockdown approach and will tolerate more COVID risks. Many have already been out of work for three months. Sure, And short of April where non-essential businesses were shuttered, we haven't seen total lockdowns. Sadly, job losses in the hospitality industry will be unavoidable. I don't see myself going to a movie theatre or a gym for awhile. Quote No worse than it has already been impacted. COVID fatigue has set in and young people seem to be the least tolerant of continued restrictions. Open bars and drinking seem to be more important to them. And this is why they can't have nice things. Those bars have now been closed in multiple states. Young people are leading the spikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Boges said: It would be foolish to let a COVID-19 positive person into a workplace. People without paid sick-leave will feel this more than most. If you can't work from home, getting COVID-19 is very bad, even if it won't directly kill you. It's not even a matter of "letting"....many COVID positives are asymptomatic and untested. 80% of those infected have no or only very mild symptoms. Employers will implement cleaning and barriers and adjust as needed. Again, the quarantine enforcement resources are not what you may want or think they are. Quote And this is why they can't have nice things. Those bars have now been closed in multiple states. Young people are leading the spikes. It is what it is...the essence of a pandemic without a vaccine. To some of them, it is a Boomer Remover. I personally underestimated just how important alcohol/drug consumption is to many people, either socially or as an addiction. Government was quick to meet this demand out of fear for worse outcomes if alcohol was not readily available. Accordingly, it is not difficult to extend and rationalize such allowances for many other areas and behaviours in a free society. What it comes down to is that people who want to isolate and avoid exposure will do so, while others will take more risks depending on their tolerance. Edited June 30, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Again, the quarantine enforcement resources are not what you may want or think they are. Then the disease will continue to spread. Quote What it comes down to is that people who want to isolate and avoid exposure will do so, while others will take more risks depending on their tolerance. Again this is thread drift beyond a larger Trump discussion on how this happen on his watch. But young people don't live in a bubble. They work/live with older people. Not to mention many young people have risk factors that make them more likely to succumb from the disease. This Herd Immunity ideology doesn't work without an extraordinary cost. And we don't even know if people with anti-bodies stop spreading the disease and/or are immune forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) Information coming out about how horribly bad Trump's calls are with foreign leaders. With dictators, he sucks up and gets played. With allies, he blusters, threatens and insults. It's an embarrassing recitation of just how inept and over his head Trump is on the world stage. In hundreds of highly classified phone calls with foreign heads of state, President Donald Trump was so consistently unprepared for discussion of serious issues, so often outplayed in his conversations with powerful leaders like Russian President Vladimir Putin and Turkish President Recep Erdogan, and so abusive to leaders of America's principal allies, that the calls helped convince some senior US officials -- including his former secretaries of state and defense, two national security advisers and his longest-serving chief of staff -- that the President himself posed a danger to the national security of the United States, according to White House and intelligence officials intimately familiar with the contents of the conversations. The calls caused former top Trump deputies -- including national security advisers H.R. McMaster and John Bolton, Defense Secretary James Mattis, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, and White House chief of staff John Kelly, as well as intelligence officials -- to conclude that the President was often "delusional," as two sources put it, in his dealings with foreign leaders. The sources said there was little evidence that the President became more skillful or competent in his telephone conversations with most heads of state over time. Rather, he continued to believe that he could either charm, jawbone or bully almost any foreign leader into capitulating to his will, and often pursued goals more attuned to his own agenda than what many of his senior advisers considered the national interest. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/politics/trump-phone-calls-national-security-concerns/index.html Edited June 30, 2020 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Boges said: Again this is thread drift beyond a larger Trump discussion on how this happen on his watch. But young people don't live in a bubble. They work/live with older people. Not to mention many young people have risk factors that make them more likely to succumb from the disease. This Herd Immunity ideology doesn't work without an extraordinary cost. And we don't even know if people with anti-bodies stop spreading the disease and/or are immune forever. That's why it really has little to do with Trump, or any president with existing federal, state, and local public health infrastructure. Trump always wanted to own the economy when it was doing well, so he has to accept the downside too. The U.S. population is very diverse and has responded in many different ways....there is simply no uniform approach or compliance model that will work. And this is not unique to the USA. For reference, COVID-19 is not even top 10 for causes of death among young people in America. Smoking reportedly causes more than 450,000 deaths each year for Americans, but 15% of the population still smokes, and the government still benefits from tobacco tax revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: That's why it really has little to do with Trump, or any president with existing federal, state, and local public health infrastructure. Trump always wanted to own the economy when it was doing well, so he has to accept the downside too. The U.S. population is very diverse and has responded in many different ways....there is simply no uniform approach or compliance model that will work. And this is not unique to the USA. For reference, COVID-19 is not even top 10 for causes of death among young people in America. Smoking reportedly causes more than 450,000 deaths each year for Americans, but 15% of the population still smokes, and the government still benefits from tobacco tax revenue. You can't get Lung Cancer from someone else though, except through second-hand smoke. Which is why most places now ban smoking in public. I agree that none of the economic issues are really Trump's fault. But he can't take credit for an economy he inherited and wash his hands of an economy that's in the dumpster. So we agree. However he's on record as constantly downplaying the virus. And his hypocritical bravado is damaging. Not wearing a mask in public sends the wrong message now. He can be cocky about it because everyone in his sphere is constantly being tested. Notice he's not blaming GOP governors for recent spikes like he did with Cuomo and Whitmer early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Boges said: You can't get Lung Cancer from someone else though, except through second-hand smoke. Which is why most places now ban smoking in public. The point is that people's behaviours are not so easily controlled, and that includes Trump's impact, even for his base. Quote However he's on record as constantly downplaying the virus. And his hypocritical bravado is damaging. Not wearing a mask in public sends the wrong message now. He can be cocky about it because everyone in his sphere is constantly being tested. Notice he's not blaming GOP governors for recent spikes like he did with Cuomo and Whitmer early on. The mask issue is just a red herring...lots of people are not wearing masks. Believe it or not, President Obama was a smoker, setting a "bad example" ? None of the GOP governors has reached Cuomo's level of policy impact and resulting deaths. Trump will remain as defiant as ever, 'cause that's how he got to be president. Few would find him "woke" as anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Trump will remain as defiant as ever, 'cause that's how he got to be president. Few would find him "woke" as anything else. Sure. It's not in his DNA to be contrite or humble. But if things don't change, come November he will be humbled at levels not seen since 1984. Will he go quietly into that good night? AND into an indictment by the SDNY. Edited June 30, 2020 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Boges said: Sure. It's not in his DNA to be contrite or humble. But if things don't change, come November he will be humbled at levels not seen since 1984. Will he go quietly into that good night? AND into an indictment by the SDNY. Yes, he will...no choice really. Trump is just another U.S. president. Nixon resigned...and was quickly pardoned. Trump already exceeded expectations and outperformed in 2016....not too shabby for a huckster from Queens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Nixon resigned...and was quickly pardoned. I suspect POTUS Biden won't be as nice. Quote Trump already exceeded expectations and outperformed in 2016....not too shabby for a huckster from Queens. But that's what he'll be seen as, not a great POTUS, but someone who conned himself into the White House. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, Boges said: I suspect POTUS Biden won't be as nice. He will if he doesn't want Trump to continue as a divisive distraction, same as Ford/Nixon. Quote But that's what he'll be seen as, not a great POTUS, but someone who conned himself into the White House. Trump was never going to be a "great POTUS", he was going to be a political inflection point and barrier to Hillary Clinton. In that, he succeeded. Few U.S. presidents rise to the level of "greatness", and that would include Joe Biden if he becomes president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Few U.S. presidents rise to the level of "greatness", and that would include Joe Biden if he becomes president. I agree. I think Biden is just seen as the most pragmatic choice to beat Trump. Which is why Biden's Veep choice is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, Boges said: I agree. I think Biden is just seen as the most pragmatic choice to beat Trump. Which is why Biden's Veep choice is very important. That's fine, and after all the Trump haters high-five each other, they are going to come to the realization that all of the problems still remain, problems that Biden helped to create. Trump will still get his pension, Secret Service protection, maybe even a presidential library, and he will still be a member of a very exclusive club...and he did it before Joe Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: That's fine, and after all the Trump haters high-five each other, they are going to come to the realization that all of the problems still remain, problems that Biden helped to create. Trump will still get his pension, Secret Service protection, maybe even a presidential library, and he will still be a member of a very exclusive club...and he did it before Joe Biden. . . . and a criminal conviction. LOCK HIM UP!!! Edited June 30, 2020 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, Boges said: . . . and a criminal conviction. Several U.S. presidents are presumed to be "war criminals"...long before Trump's alleged issues. ...just part of the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Several U.S. presidents are presumed to be "war criminals"...long before Trump's alleged issues. ...just part of the job. Those are nebulous charged. Micheal Cohen is serving prison time for things Trump instructed him to do. The case is pretty open and closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Boges said: Those are nebulous charged. Micheal Cohen is serving prison time for things Trump instructed him to do. The case is pretty open and closed. That's what they said about Michael Flynn too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: That's what they said about Michael Flynn too. Having your own Stooge leading the DOJ does wonders doesn't it? Edited June 30, 2020 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Boges said: Having your own Stooge leading the DOJ does wonders doesn't it? Worked for Bill Clinton too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 47 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Worked for Bill Clinton too. And Barack Obama! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted July 1, 2020 Report Share Posted July 1, 2020 On 6/30/2020 at 9:44 AM, Boges said: It would be foolish to let a COVID-19 positive person into a workplace. Still not as bad as placing them back in care homes, but foolish for sure. "Building herd immunity" has never been stated as an acceptable goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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