America under President Trump

Boges · November 7, 2019

I'm pretty sure the way GOP Senators get out of this is by conceding the Quid Pro Quo took place but that it's not an impeachable offence. That's set aside for getting a BJ in the Oval Office.

What will be funny is that Trump wants the narrative to be that he did nothing wrong. So that defence won't work for him. He thinks outright denial of plainly observable facts will have him win the day.

The whole "Read the Transcript" defence is hilarious.

1) It's a Memorandum not a Transcript

2) It, plain as day, shows Trump asking Ukraine for a favour to look into Crowdstrike and Burisma.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Boges

WestCanMan · November 7, 2019

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

I'm pretty sure the way GOP Senators get out of this is by conceding the Quid Pro Quo took place but that it's not an impeachable offence. That's set aside for getting a BJ in the Oval Office.

What will be funny is that Trump wants the narrative to be that he did nothing wrong. So that defence won't work for him. He thinks outright denial of plainly observable facts will have him win the day.

The whole "Read the Transcript" defence is hilarious.

1) It's a Memorandum not a Transcript

2) It, plain as day, shows Trump asking Ukraine for a favour to look into Crowdstrike and Burisma.

The evidence against Trump falls well short of being a quid pro quo. He just asked the Ukrainians to look into a crime that Biden bragged about on tv. The second shipment of Javelins was on hold for more than one reason. Obama gave the Ukrainians nothing. Trump had already given them some.

FYI Boges this isn't like the Russian collusion thing, where Hillary paid foreigners to make things up and then got the FBI to use it for a FISA warrant. IE, Trump didn't pay the Ukrainians to fabricate false evidence to create the appearance of a crime to start an investigation. He saw a video of Joe Biden bragging about a crime, he asked the Ukrainians to check it out.

If everything that Joe Biden said and everything that we know he did is all true then he committed an easily provable crime.

If everything that people are insinuating about Trump is true he still didn't commit a crime.

Boges · November 7, 2019

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The evidence against Trump falls well short of being a quid pro quo. He just asked the Ukrainians to look into a crime that Biden bragged about on tv. The second shipment of Javelins was on hold for more than one reason. Obama gave the Ukrainians nothing. Trump had already given them some.

Both the token reasons given fall short of being believable.

1) Other NATO nations do assist Ukraine. And even if they didn't, making Ukraine suffer doesn't help change that situation

2) Trump has shown absolutely no interest in investigating corruption. The only time it seems he cares about corruption is when it involves the Democrats or the Bidens.

Also, there's a growing list of people that are testifying that they were pressured by the White House and Rudy to withhold Aide in exchange for an investigation.

So everyone is lying except the pathological liar? :lol:

Edited November 7, 2019 by Boges

godzilla · November 7, 2019

“They should investigate the Bidens,” Trump said. “Likewise, China should start an investigation into Biden..." confession of the first crime
"That's why we held up the money," Mulvaney said... confession of the second crime

without the rule of law then democracy and freedom are done. you've given that up. Trump and his supporters contend that the rule of law doesn't exist. that everyone is corrupt so it really just comes down to who is the most corrupt or who is corrupt in the name of some altruistic path. the reality is that everyone who is guilty of a crime should be punished accordingly. without that then tyranny will reign.

WestCanMan · November 7, 2019

3 hours ago, Boges said:

Both the token reasons given fall short of being believable.

1) Other NATO nations do assist Ukraine. And even if they didn't, making Ukraine suffer doesn't help change that situation

2) Trump has shown absolutely no interest in investigating corruption. The only time it seems he cares about corruption is when it involves the Democrats or the Bidens.

Also, there's a growing list of people that are testifying that they were pressured by the White House and Rudy to withhold Aide in exchange for an investigation.

So everyone is lying except the pathological liar?

1) Other NATO nations should

2) That's a crap reply. What investigations did he show "no interest" in which should have been investigated? He already knew that he didn't collude with Russia, so he knew that investigation was a wste of time. Ditto for obstruction. The Kavanaugh investigation was a joke. So what did he miss?

There's a video of Biden bragging that he did a quid pro qou to get the Ukraine's top prosecutor fired, and then he, the all important VPOTUS, put the new guy in place. How is that even a thing? It worked though, Burisma is now in the clear.

Anyone who says that Biden doesn't need to be investigated and Trump does here is just a huge idiot. I have no time for such preposterous, hyper-partisan drivel.

bush_cheney2004 · November 7, 2019

5 hours ago, Argus said:

Canada's former ambassador to the US says Trump's incoherent foreign policy, recklessness and ignorance are a huge boon to Russia and China, which are pushing their influence forward to take over the vacuum left by waning American influence.

Too bad....this same ambassador came from a NATO spending goal deadbeat (Canada). If it matters so much to stand up to Russia and China, then maybe Canada and other deadbeat nations would put more skin in the game. President Obama's incoherent foreign policy also helped Russia and China, and he also criticized the NATO deadbeats.

Besides, U.S. foreign policy is not Canada's choice...ever. Wanna be the new "world police"...then go for it....Mr. Ambassador.

Cannucklehead · November 8, 2019

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-50338231

Lol trump donating to charity. He is a charity case. What he desperately needs are IQ's. :lol:

OftenWrong · November 8, 2019

Oh poor little Ukraine! They deserve their money right away! :rolleyes:

WestCanMan · November 8, 2019

4 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-50338231

Lol trump donating to charity. He is a charity case. What he desperately needs are IQ's.

If you were trying to smear Trump's character you should have actually just quoted the article. It was a damning indictment of his use of false charity. Your own childish insults pale in comparison to the seriousness of those charges.

All in all, it puts him in the same boat as the Clintons, and to a lesser extent Oprah.

The Clintons have known how to run their "foundation" like a second income for decades. It's basically a net for collecting the cash from all of their influence peddling, international and domestic. Trump just screwed up and his trail of cookie crumbs was too obvious. The $2M fine is basically a joke though, so what he did was basically legal. It's like fighting in hockey. If you got banned for life then you could say for certain that fighting isn't allowed. If you got banned for a season fighting would still almost completely be banned. Banned for a game, it's sorta banned. 5 minute penalty = have at 'er boys. A $2m fine for pretending the money is for one thing and then using it for something else is like saying "don't get caught".

I hate all forms of "shameless self-promotion disguised as charity". Oprah and her guests are the worst. "Oh my gosh, look at me, I just gave a goat to every family in a village in Africa. I literally gave .0000001% of my income from today's show to charity! But let's not have a conversation about how great I am. Seriously, stop it."

dialamah · November 8, 2019

13 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Oh my gosh, look at me, I just gave a goat to every family in a village in Africa. I literally gave .0000001% of my income from today's show to charity! But let's not have a conversation about how great I am. Seriously, stop it."

I like knowing that some people who have money and power are giving to those who are less fortunate. Makes a change from those who have money and power demanding more money, paying to consolidate their power and demeaning and marginalizing those who little money or power.

Rue · November 8, 2019

On 11/6/2019 at 3:55 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

??? President Bill Clinton was impeached by the U.S. House in December 1998.

Clearly you are not well aware.

You Trump supporters on this thread were quick to point out the impeachment process has two stages, the first at the House of Representatives where it can recommend a trial for impeachment, and then a trial in the Senate to decide if there should be a conviction based on the impeachment recommendation. Make up your minds. Y'all were screaming and whining just because the H of Rep recommends an impeachment doesn't make it one without a conviction, then when it comes to Clinton without him being convicted by a Senate trial you falsely claim he was impeached. He was never impeached. There never was a trial or conviction. Furthermore Clinton being given a blow job pales in comparison to the sheer bullshit Trump has engaged in since being elected. Go read the latest lies about his charity donations he never provided as he was supposed to when convicted of crimes in the past.

Cannucklehead · November 8, 2019

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

If you were trying to smear Trump's character you should have actually just quoted the article. It was a damning indictment of his use of false charity. Your own childish insults pale in comparison to the seriousness of those charges.

All in all, it puts him in the same boat as the Clintons, and to a lesser extent Oprah.

The Clintons have known how to run their "foundation" like a second income for decades. It's basically a net for collecting the cash from all of their influence peddling, international and domestic. Trump just screwed up and his trail of cookie crumbs was too obvious. The $2M fine is basically a joke though, so what he did was basically legal. It's like fighting in hockey. If you got banned for life then you could say for certain that fighting isn't allowed. If you got banned for a season fighting would still almost completely be banned. Banned for a game, it's sorta banned. 5 minute penalty = have at 'er boys. A $2m fine for pretending the money is for one thing and then using it for something else is like saying "don't get caught".

I hate all forms of "shameless self-promotion disguised as charity". Oprah and her guests are the worst. "Oh my gosh, look at me, I just gave a goat to every family in a village in Africa. I literally gave .0000001% of my income from today's show to charity! But let's not have a conversation about how great I am. Seriously, stop it."

I dont have to try to smear trumps character, he does that by himself.

Rue · November 8, 2019

47 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I like knowing that some people who have money and power are giving to those who are less fortunate. Makes a change from those who have money and power demanding more money, paying to consolidate their power and demeaning and marginalizing those who little money or power.

Trump lied. As a principle reason for his pleas to be what they were, he promised to donate to charities as restitution for his crimes. As people can now clearly see in the latest judgement against him he lied yet again and never made the donations he claimed he did. Its just one of a never ending cascade of his lies that Trump supporters on this thread laugh off because of their partisan views that do not allow them to acknowledge Trump is a liar and has always been one. Their defence to his lack of morality and continuing lies is that others are immoral and lie.

WestCanMan · November 8, 2019

27 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I like knowing that some people who have money and power are giving to those who are less fortunate. Makes a change from those who have money and power demanding more money, paying to consolidate their power

True charity is anonymous. Advertising your own charity or charity work is nothing more than shameless self-promotion.

Quote

demeaning and marginalizing those who little money or power.

I know where you think this kind of thing comes from but you're wrong.

The best thing that you can do for people who are down is open up opportunities for them. Create a strong economy where people can see a future for themselves as independent workers who are not completely reliant on the public teat. The only people I know who are truly happy do not live in a welfare condition. Politicians who just look to expand the welfare state are really just looking to create more leftist voters.

The worst thing that you can do to people with no money or power is give them an Obama-esque speech to the tune of "That little Trayvon kid looked just like me. Cops killed him just because he was black and now they're not facing punishment because of systemic racism". That's the kind of thing that sounds to a gr 3 student like "Don't bother going to school. Get a gun and sell some drugs. Fear the cops. Hate 'the man'. Your skin makes you a target." And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you assume that cops or a whole race of people hate you then you look for that hatred in their faces, they're looking back at an angry little you and their face reflects what they are seeing - so you are guaranteed to see what you expect to see. When people do genuinely rude things to you, which will certainly happen, it's assumed to be racism and it's more justification of what you feel. Racists don't rationalize things like that and say "people of my own race do that to me all the time" because they get no emotional reward from that. Fuelling your own hate feels good to people who are raised to hate. School is a pipe dream to people who believe what Obama said, so they don't try as hard at math as they do at basketball, or being a rapper. Those are dead-end paths. Basically just a waste of energy that would have best been used elsewhere. That leads to hopelessness and bad decisions. That leads to the next Trayvon Martin incident, where a routine run-in with an authority figure turns deadly. It's a vicious cycle.

Rue · November 8, 2019

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Oh poor little Ukraine! They deserve their money right away!

That's not the issue, hijacking the powers of POTUS to blackmail a sovereign nation to engage in a partisan action in the personal election interests of Trump is. As for Ukraine, well if you think being an ally with Putin and condoning his attacks and invasion of Ukraine is in the best interests of the US good for you. If it was Obama who had done that you would be the first on here crying bloody murder. Trump should not get a pass simply because he can use his office that way. He is a Putin crony and using his office to violate his public office powers for personal conflicted interest purposes. That is the issue.

Rue · November 8, 2019

2 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

I dont have to try to smear trumps character, he does that by himself.

I see they are still denying the big brown stain on Trump's pants.

This article summarizes Donald Trump's behaviour:

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19541248/psychology-of-the-serial-pooper/

WestCanMan · November 8, 2019

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Trump lied. As a principle reason for his pleas to be what they were, he promised to donate to charities as restitution for his crimes. As people can now clearly see in the latest judgement against him he lied yet again and never made the donations he claimed he did. Its just one of a never ending cascade of his lies that Trump supporters on this thread laugh off because of their partisan views that do not allow them to acknowledge Trump is a liar and has always been one. Their defence to his lack of morality and continuing lies is that others are immoral and lie.

Every politician lies (none as much as Clinton and Schiff). They all gain massive wealth while they're doing jobs that pay them just a small fraction of what they accumulate. Stop acting like Trump is any different from Obama or Sanders. "I wrote a book and I became an instant multi-multi-multi-millionaire! Now I own a bunch of houses and I fly on private jets while I pontificate to the idiotic masses about global warming!"

Trudeau and his fiends will all get wealthier too.

The difference is that Americans are getting ahead by leaps and bounds while Trump is President, Canadians are looking at a huge dumpster fire.

Cannucklehead · November 8, 2019

Just now, Rue said:

I see they are still denying the big brown stain on Trump's pants.

This article summarizes Donald Trump's behaviour:

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19541248/psychology-of-the-serial-pooper/

Trump is just that kind of person. Those who don't like him never will, and those that like him always will regardless of what he does. He could wipe his ass with the flag and some people would cheer.

Cannucklehead · November 8, 2019

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Every politician lies (none as much as Clinton and Schiff). They all gain massive wealth while they're doing jobs that pay them just a small fraction of what they accumulate. Stop acting like Trump is any different from Obama or Sanders. "I wrote a book and I became an instant multi-multi-multi-millionaire! Now I own a bunch of houses and I fly on private jets while I pontificate to the idiotic masses about global warming!"

Trudeau and his fiends will all get wealthier too.

The difference is that Americans are getting ahead by leaps and bounds while Trump is President, Canadians are looking at a huge dumpster fire.

The only thing progressing under trump is the national debt.

dialamah · November 8, 2019

10 minutes ago, Rue said:

Their defence to his lack of morality and continuing lies is that others are immoral and lie.

For sure. Many people do not lie about their charitable donations, and those who can't tell the difference despite mountains of evidence are as immoral as the liar.

WestCanMan · November 8, 2019

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

I see they are still denying the big brown stain on Trump's pants.

This article summarizes Donald Trump's behaviour:

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19541248/psychology-of-the-serial-pooper/

OMG Rue, you've gone down a dark path of "mental health crisis" proportions. That article is easily more applicable to people who wake up every day and write that "More bombshell evidence of Russian collusion has just been unearthed - we're on the threshold of impeachment!" when they already knew that to be false over a year ago. If half of what they said was true, and awesome new evidence was found every other day for 2.5 years, Trump would surely be in jail. That was 2.5 years of straight-up lying.

WestCanMan · November 8, 2019

5 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

The only thing progressing under trump is the national debt.

LOL. That's either a straight-up, unflinching lie or you're a complete idiot. Pick your poison.

Cannucklehead · November 8, 2019

6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

LOL. That's either a straight-up, unflinching lie or you're a complete idiot. Pick your poison.

It's the truth. Hard to admit isnt it?

WestCanMan · November 8, 2019

18 minutes ago, Rue said:

Their defence to his lack of morality and continuing lies is that others are immoral and lie.

The point that was made is that Trump is less guilty than people like Biden and Clinton who are absolutely known to have committed serious crimes, or even bragged about them, and yet remain completely immune to prosecution.

I'll talk about Trump's issues with clarity and perspective all day, it's the partisan hyperbole that needs to be held in check.

As long as you want to stand there and act like Trump is worse than other people, when there's no shortage of evidence that you are lying, this is going nowhere.

Why didn't you reply to my comparison of Hunter Biden and the Trump kids Rue? Because your taking point was completely obliterated. So you just move on and make more accusations elsewhere. Step up. Raise the level of your game Rue.

godzilla · November 8, 2019

no persuasive evidence of systemic, deliberate mishandling of classified information

and this is from Trumps State Department.

as I've pointed out.... the rule of law can be a bitch. when its obvious that not a jury in the nation will convict someone then its best just to let it go then fail trying.

of course, doesn't mean you can't look to other nations that desperately need help for a little assistance.