Argus Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) I am a proud Canadian who is also proud of how our governments have prioritized spending on civilian Canadians rather than more killing machines and career soldiers. Those of us who are somewhat students of history are well aware that world relationships have always, ALWAYS involved the strong coercing, bullying or simply beating the weak. And as Russia has demonstrated, that has not changed. Because of this spartanly simple fact world nations have always, historically, tried to ensure they had a reasonably strong and capable military in keeping with what they can afford. As the German invasion of Poland showed, it's a little late to start replacing your horses with tanks when the enemy's tanks are rolling across your territory. There is a certain mentality alive in the West, however, principally among the Left (naturally) which not only does not wish to pay for a strong military, but tends to assume a sort of moral superiority in not having one. It's a kind of strutting sense of self-nobility which suggests one is superior to the lowbrow types who glory in things militaristic. But it only works as long as those who do have a strong military choose to let it. The moment they decide there is opportunity then the smug academic starts grasping around for someone to defend him and his interests and finds that it's too late by then to build up sufficient forces to do so. People tend to forget we have a very long border with Russia, especially (oddly) those who believe global warming is going to soon allow for more and more development and transit through the north. They also ignore that letting another country protect you means ceding authority over your own territory to them, and letting them negotiate with anyone who wants it, much as the British once ceded territory in Canada to the Americans, or the French signed away Quebec to the British. But of course, you would have to know something of history, and most Canadians today do not - products of a shoddy school system. Edited July 3, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 While I assume that you speak for yourself of why you joined and stayed in the forces there are others who joined for very different and more financial and rational reasons. Many treat it as a job and very few members of our military actually see conflict. I do speak for myself, and yet I spent 34 years serving in the military, and have talked to thousands that have served as well, the question of why did you join up was a common one. And while your right there are many reasons that attract people to the military....but those reasons change as they get in and see what military life is about. It is an organization that allows an individual to become part of a larger organization, to make a difference, to have a sense of worth knowing that it is a job worth doing, one that can only be done with dedication to the larger ideals, it also combines a sense of honor, integrity, loyalty, to yourself, comrads, and country. It's a job that includes unlimited liability, meaning you may be told to place your life in peril or give your life for a greater good. There are thousands of jobs available to Canadians that pay a lot more than soldiering does, for a lot less risk.... Many do treat the military as a job, however those people are normally easy to spot, and if they do not live up to the forces expectations, they are asked to leave, or forced out... Your comment on very few members see conflict is wrong....The average soldier in the army has completed 3 to 4 tours in Afghanistan, or at least 1 or 2 tours as a peace keeper or peace maker...One does not have to fire a wpn in anger to experience conflict....As for the air force, one of the smallest elements in the forces, it to has been in conflict areas, flying helos , transporting troops on and off the battle field, under fire, providing medevac services, Combat rescue, surveillance mission, same as the navy.... All one has to do is look at a military members chest and view the medals on their chest....most of those medals are for serving in a conflict zone.....and most have a chest full. As for injuries, can military members take out additional health and life insurance? Yes, their is a military driven insurance called SSIP, that provides "basic" coverage while in military operations....No other Insurance will touch it with a ten foot pole....That being said, just recently Banks have actioned coverage for house hold insurance IE it will pay out your mortgage if you are severely wounded and can not work, or upon death... While I respect those who join our military I also respect those who choose to join other law enforcement, firefighters and those in the health community. I do not see military people as heroes. Neither does the military think of themselves as hero's, that's a stigma given to them by the media....and politicians....Those heroic acts soldiers perform are not for Queen and country, the Canadian flag, or it's citizens....they are done for their comrads, nothing more....Now for me, all of those I have served with I do consider heros in my own right, only because there are not many Canadians that have what it takes to become a soldier, Airmen, or sailor.... Personally, I feel investing in our military is not a prudent or effective use of our money. Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia and now Iraq were a waste of $billions of our taxes but yet we continue to pour money into this arm of the government. As long as our government continues to use it's military forces to protect or project our foreign policies, defensive agreements, or national defense....it has the responsibility to look after it's military including equipping them properly and looking after it's vets....you know Canadian citizens who volunteered to do the job not many wanted.... Until that happens, your opinions are responsible for this on going cycle we have now....Cheaper to bury our soldiers than buy the equipment they need.... My suggestion to those in the military who are unhappy with the way they are being treated is that they leave and seek employment elsewhere - that is what the rest of us do. The military is more than just a job....it is a way of life.....But to answer your statement many do just that....leaving disappointed, educated on just how little Canadians care about the country . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 I see no evidence that Canadians don't care about Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 Those of us who are somewhat students of history are well aware that world relationships have always, ALWAYS involved the strong coercing, bullying or simply beating the weak. And as Russia has demonstrated, that has not changed.And as the West has demonstrated it's even more accomplished at being a complete sphincter when it comes to being a bully.Any student of history who says otherwise is a liar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 I see no evidence that Canadians don't care about Canada. Seems that some care more about the American DoD/Pentagon than anything going on with Canadian Forces. Canada's politicians and citizens have "severely hindered" DND defense planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 There are thousands of jobs available to Canadians that pay a lot more than soldiering does, for a lot less risk.... True, but there are also jobs that pay a lot less than soldiering and involve a lot higher risk. Loggers, fishing and trapping, farming, mining and quarrying, transportation, etc. Additionally, most soldiers are not battlefield soldiers and those that are don't spend most of their career there. I agree we have done a poor job equipping our soldiers for the battles we have sent them in, but the bigger problem is we should not have been in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc. We need to focus our resources properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 I see no evidence that Canadians don't care about Canada. How would you quantify it then....ask them, do you care about any of the policies our government makes....Outsides of Canadians personal lives would you say most meaning the majority of Canadians really care enough about what policies are made by any government in power.... Some do, lets see Women's rights thousands marched, protested, started massive women's rights groups....so I guess we can say some women care.... Same thing with African Americans, they did the same thing until new policies and laws were put into place... The LGBT community, has done the same thing until we changed our ways of thinking adding new laws and policies.... Students have done it although they were some what unsuccessful in lower costs.... Anything but harper campaign , Canadians gathered around.... So we know Canadians are capable of voicing their opinions on certain issues....but what about the BIG issues And yet there are dozens of issues that need to be tackled within our nation, that without Canadians using their voices for will go on unchanged forever....unless they effect Hockey Night in Canada, Pogey checks, and UI checks.... How does one interrupt that , well one could say Canadians are content with the way things are....or they don't give a rats ass, unless it effects them personally....Or maybe Canadians are to lazy or to busy with their personal lives to take some time to effect change.....after all we know that if Canadians want to they can effect change, history is full of examples....but there must be the will to effect change.....But why would they , because there is nothing in it for them.....look at the native issues....NATO issues, foreign affairs issues.... Shit take a look at the majority of posters here, that will stand up and jump around like their hair is on fire, about our nations foreign policies and our participation in US lead wars.....I would even go as far and say that this opinion is held be a majority of Canadians.....and yet government after government continues to send our troops over seas....That's because there voices have not been heard.......why because nobody wants to.... we either care or we do not, I see no evidence that they do care ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 True, but there are also jobs that pay a lot less than soldiering and involve a lot higher risk. Loggers, fishing and trapping, farming, mining and quarrying, transportation, etc. Additionally, most soldiers are not battlefield soldiers and those that are don't spend most of their career there. I agree we have done a poor job equipping our soldiers for the battles we have sent them in, but the bigger problem is we should not have been in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc. We need to focus our resources properly. Well that would be another debate would it not, what jobs involve a higher risk than soldiering, I get it there are a lot of studies done, facts and figures point to a lot of jobs that are overall more dangerous than soldiering....but those figures are skewed to reflect that...by either shear numbers, or peace time numbers, I wonder what posed the most danger being a infantry soldier during the assault on Europe WWII, or fishing, driving a truck, or farming corn....like I said another debate altogether.... On the pay aspect, that would depend on what end of the job scale your on would it not, I know here in NB lobster fisher men, often earn more than 250 k per season, after they have paid their crew which earn a percentage of the catch....i'm pretty sure they earn more than a pte in the army 34 k a year....Plus draw UI when not working....And while I have a healthy respect for all those jobs.....and the risk they take, I'd rather been on eyeballs boat fishing and listening to his stories than do 3 tours in Afghanistan ( my opinion ) All soldiers are battle field soldiers, let me explain, yes their are combat arms, who's job is to close with and destroy the enemy, and for the most part spend most of their time doing that.....but to keep these guys supplied with beans, bullets and fuel and water, someone has to leave camp and deliver that to the combat arms guys, then there is medical support some one has to go get the wounded and treat them, this required most soldiers that go on these mission to leave the comfort of their bases and expose themselves to the enemy....Becoming a combat soldier....So that means cooks, supply. transport, maintence guys, clerks all do their part and share the risks involved in resupply, medical, and other logistical support....In Afghanistan that meant leaving the protection of the wire....I get it not as often as the Combat arms guys....but we all faced the same risk at one time or another..... I just retired form the Infantry last year with 34 years in, now while that is not the norm, it is not all that rare either....The average peer would have at least 25 years of service or more....But being an infanteer is a young mans sport, and is very hard on your body....I was lucky and never really received any major injuries.. the ones i did have i keep that to myself. I agree we have done a poor job equipping our soldiers for the battles we have sent them in, but the bigger problem is we should not have been in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc. We need to focus our resources properly . How much farther would we need to go to get to my point, There currently is no restrictions place upon our government from using it's military for what ever the reason none.....at all...with that said one brief look at history would clearly see that this issue is not tied to one government, or one time period but through the course of our entire history...How many times do we have to learn those lessons...Each time young Canadian citizens have paid for those lessons in their blood....And we as Canadians are content with that....It should piss us off....but it does not even rate an emotion.... No one is campaigning for a huge or massive army, what they are doing is however, begging for a professional armed force capable of not only defending this great nation, protecting our foreign policy, and living up to our defensive agreements....a force that is equipped with the best we can afford...Because the next time Canada is called to arms it is going to be our sons and daughters that will pay for those same mistakes we have continually made, leaving ourselves wonder was the price worth it..... My point is don't want to equip our nations military properly, then restrict the governments use of it....until then Canadians will gasp at the sight of another hearse rolling down the high of Heros....shrug their shoulders, reach for another beer, and turn the game back on.....That is how much attention our soldiers get for the average Canadian..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 How would you quantify it then....ask them, do you care about any of the policies our government makes....Outsides of Canadians personal lives would you say most meaning the majority of Canadians really care enough about what policies are made by any government in power.... Self interest is an enduring human quality - not proof that people don't care about Canada. Poll after poll speaks to Canadian's love of their country. Attend any national event, and you can see it. Just because we don't see any pressing reason to fund the military beyond the $20B we do, it doesn't mean that we don't care. I would argue that you're wrong - people's lives are the big issues. LGBT issues are big issues. Women's issues are big issues. Race issues are big issues. In the lives of Canadians, issues of war are trivial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Self interest is an enduring human quality - not proof that people don't care about Canada. Poll after poll speaks to Canadian's love of their country. Attend any national event, and you can see it. Just because we don't see any pressing reason to fund the military beyond the $20B we do, it doesn't mean that we don't care. I would argue that you're wrong - people's lives are the big issues. LGBT issues are big issues. Women's issues are big issues. Race issues are big issues. In the lives of Canadians, issues of war are trivial. You think the ability to defend those rights is trivial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 You think the ability to defend those rights is trivial? Most Canadians do. They don't see anything as threatening their security. Historically, they're not too far off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Most Canadians do. They don't see anything as threatening their security. Historically, they're not too far off. So only the rights of Canadians should concern Canadians. No need to concern ourselves with the rights of others other than giving them lip service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 So only the rights of Canadians should concern Canadians. No need to concern ourselves with the rights of others other than giving them lip service. I would actually increasingly agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 I would actually increasingly agree with that. Then why would you expect anyone to care about our rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Then why would you expect anyone to care about our rights? Did I say that they should? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Did I say that they should? So you don't think anyone should care about our rights and you don't think we should be able to defend them ourselves. You call that caring for Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 So you don't think anyone should care about our rights and you don't think we should be able to defend them ourselves. You call that caring for Canada? No one is threatening our position. Canadians don't see an external threat to our safety, and so they put little value in external protection (although we're still one of the top 20 spenders in the world). It's a completely reasonable circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 No one is threatening our position. Canadians don't see an external threat to our safety, and so they put little value in external protection (although we're still one of the top 20 spenders in the world). It's a completely reasonable circumstance. There is no threat until there is a threat. By no threat, you mean we are counting on the Americans to concern themselves with our rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 There is no threat until there is a threat. By no threat, you mean we are counting on the Americans to concern themselves with our rights. I mean there is no threat to Canada that exists at the current time. The Canadian people don't see it as a concern. There's no reason to read further into it than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 I mean there is no threat to Canada that exists at the current time. The Canadian people don't see it as a concern. There's no reason to read further into it than that. Like I said, there is no threat until there is a threat. Then we are screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Like I said, there is no threat until there is a threat. Then we are screwed. Who should we be able to defend ourselves against? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Who should we be able to defend ourselves against? I'm wondering how much we'd have to spend to defend ourselves against the Russians on our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 I'm wondering how much we'd have to spend to defend ourselves against the Russians on our own. So we do need others to care about our rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 So we do need others to care about our rights. I still didn't say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 I still didn't say that. Then how are we to defend ourselves from the Russians? Or do we just not bother, caring so much for Canada and all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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