Liberals party defence review

[Argus]

If this was the Conservatives, you'd be all for it. #partisanhack

If the military was properly equipped I would be in favour of it. But they aren't.

[Argus]

Some people have trouble seeing their own partisan biases.

If the military is ill equipped for this, I have a hard time blaming the guy who has been in power for 8 months.

It is not his fault the military are ill-equipped. That is Harper's fault.

It IS his fault that, like Chretien before him, he doesn't care that they're ill equipped, and is sending them anyway.

And it WILL be his fault they are ill equipped fairly soon, since he has robbed the military of its entire procurement budget in order to buy votes.

[Derek 2.0]

If the military was properly equipped I would be in favour of it. But they aren't.

And even then I wouldn't support it.......if NATO wants to revert back to the roll of a speed bump for the Russian army, they should have a force structure in Europe similar (or better) then what they had (in Europe) 30 years ago........if there is no political will for that, rely upon the American's nukes and diplomacy with the Russians.

[Smallc]

It IS his fault that, like Chretien before him, he doesn't care that they're ill equipped, and is sending them anyway.

It's not a combat mission.

[Smallc]

And even then I wouldn't support it.......if NATO wants to revert back to the roll of a speed bump for the Russian army, they should have a force structure in Europe similar (or better) then what they had (in Europe) 30 years ago........if there is no political will for that, rely upon the American's nukes and diplomacy with the Russians.

This is about making the Baltics feel better.

[Derek 2.0]

It is not his fault the military are ill-equipped. That is Harper's fault.

It IS his fault that, like Chretien before him, he doesn't care that they're ill equipped, and is sending them anyway.

And it WILL be his fault they are ill equipped fairly soon, since he has robbed the military of its entire procurement budget in order to buy votes.

It's not Harper's fault (or Martins or even Chretiens) that the Canadian Forces aren't equipped to fight WW III in Eastern Europe, anymore then any other NATO nations in a similar state.

But I agree, it is Trudeau's fault agreeing to such a mission with a Force unequipped to refight the Battle of Kursk with modern weapons.

[Derek 2.0]

It's not a combat mission.

You're right there..........if the Russians did decide to invade, the Canadians would be partaking in a dying and surrendering mission.

[Smallc]

It's not Harper's fault (or Martins or even Chretiens) that the Canadian Forces aren't equipped to fight WW III in Eastern Europe, anymore then any other NATO nations in a similar state.

Well, lets hope it doesn't come to that. This is really about improving morale on the eastern front of NATO.

[Derek 2.0]

This is about making the Baltics feel better.

[Derek 2.0]

Well, lets hope it doesn't come to that. This is really about improving morale on the eastern front of NATO.

[Smallc]

You're right there..........if the Russians did decide to invade, the Canadians would be partaking in a dying and surrendering mission.

No disagreement there. On their doorstep, we're not even a speed bump. On our own doorstep, we'd at least be that much.

[Smallc]

You laugh, but that's what it's really about. They're getting scared, so NATO said, here, we'll send you some people.

[Derek 2.0]

No disagreement there. On their doorstep, we're not even a speed bump. On our own doorstep, we'd at least be that much.

Canada? We haven't been a proper speed bump since we got ride of turn-key battlefield nukes.......lets put this in context, NATO is putting together a force of 4-5000 multinational troops to stop several Russian tank armies of over 100k personal, combined with divisions upon divisions of prepositioned equipment, days in which it can be mobilized.

[Smallc]

lets put this in context, NATO is putting together a force of 4-5000 multinational troops to stop several Russian tank armies of over 100k personal, combined with divisions upon divisions of prepositioned equipment, days in which it can be mobilized.

But again, that isn't the point of it. It's about making the Baltic countries feel safer.

[Derek 2.0]

You laugh, but that's what it's really about. They're getting scared, so NATO said, here, we'll send you some people.

I laugh because its a chickenshit gesture, akin to offering to piss on someone who's caught on fire (If the Russians were to light a match)

[Derek 2.0]

But again, that isn't the point of it. It's about making the Baltic countries feel safer.

And it doesn't.......so its a waste of time and money.

[Smallc]

And it doesn't.......so its a waste of time and money.

But NATO wants us to do it. We've not turned them down in recent history, no matter who was in charge.

[Queenmandy85]

Let's be clear. If the Russians invade and the NATO Brigades are over run and killed, the rest of us would be dead a few hours later. The NATO brigades are tripwire. The Russians will know that World War III means 90 percent of the world's population will die within a week. The remaining 10% will die in a few months following.

[Army Guy]

So you're willing to let NATO die?

This is rich, The question should be why is Canada suddenly stepping up to the NATO plate....Most of our NATO commitments have been either handed back to NATO or decreased beyond being capable of anything....Our forces have been slashed to the point that we could not do NATO, NORAD or continental defense at the same time....and if we do our commitment would be extremely small in the grand scheme of things....

Not to mention part of our NATO commitment is to maintain 2 % of GDP, to be spent on Defense, (today we spend just over 1 %), so a proper response can be mounted....or act as a deterrent. 3 severely under manned Brigade size formations is not living up to any of the above reason for us to have a military in the first place....

Todays military is much smaller and less capable than the one that fought in Afghanistan, and we struggled to put a 3500 member battle group into battle and maintain that for any duration....

The Canadian Military is shrieking every day....today cut backs to the reserve force, because the regular military is being starved....little stories here and there, covering all these cut backs and dismantling of capabilities but nobody give a flying fuc**, as long as the game is on, and the pogey check arrives on time....

Canadians know this, "they approve of this" either willingly or by their silence, and yet time after time our government puts this ladies and gentlemen in harms way to make a few political points with our allies, on the backs of our soldiers.....who sacrifice everything for love of country and their comrades in arms......More than our nations politicians are willing to sacrifice, or most of it's citizens....And yet we are all happy with the way things are....

Canadians should be hanging their heads in shame, for the way we treat our military and our veterans....The military has a saying "bend over and prepare to receive belt feed cock"....not just from our politicians, but from most of it's citizens and their silence as well.....Things will never change....because there is no will to change it.....

Canada's NATO commitment died along time ago....dust in the wind...and you didn't even notice....

[Smallc]

You make it sound like it's only Canada - that's the reality for most every country, save a few.

[Army Guy]

Let's be clear. If the Russians invade and the NATO Brigades are over run and killed, the rest of us would be dead a few hours later. The NATO brigades are tripwire. The Russians will know that World War III means 90 percent of the world's population will die within a week. The remaining 10% will die in a few months following.

That's not Russian doctrine, Russia believes that it can win both a conventional war or one with limited nuclear wpns being used. They don't value life like we do, and would be willing to throw millions of lives away to accomplish their goals....They believe NATO would give in after major loss of life....They also believe NATO would not risk a full nuclear exchange....for something like a few countries in Europe.

[Army Guy]

You make it sound like it's only Canada - that's the reality for most every country, save a few.

I did not say it was only Canada, but during the height of the cold war most it if not all of NATO European countries took their NATO commitment serious. and never started with peace dividends until after the wall came down....That being said Canada has always cheaped out....Their commitment really ended after WWII...

[Derek 2.0]

But NATO wants us to do it. We've not turned them down in recent history, no matter who was in charge.

So? NATO wanted more European members to take on combat missions in Afghanistan.....how did that turn out?

[Derek 2.0]

Let's be clear. If the Russians invade and the NATO Brigades are over run and killed, the rest of us would be dead a few hours later. The NATO brigades are tripwire. The Russians will know that World War III means 90 percent of the world's population will die within a week. The remaining 10% will die in a few months following.

If you want to "be clear" put this into context.......this is one brigade, ~1/3rd of a Division, spread across Eastern Europe. The Russians have in the European theater several Armies, comprised of several divisions each, in addition to countless reserve divisions throughout Europe.

This is not a tripwire, the combined NATO armies, comprised of countless divisons, in Europe (namely West Germany) were tripwires during the Cold War........this is comical.

If a war were to occur, the Russians have no need to use chemical and nuclear weapons (as they likely would have during the Cold War), as such, the first use of nukes would likely be by the French as the Russians were driving on Paris in several weeks.

[Derek 2.0]

I did not say it was only Canada, but during the height of the cold war most it if not all of NATO European countries took their NATO commitment serious. and never started with peace dividends until after the wall came down....That being said Canada has always cheaped out....Their commitment really ended after WWII...

In my opinion, one of the biggest hindrances that NATO would face(self imposed) in a (defensive) war against the Russians is the signing of the landmine/submunition treaty.