Iran vs Saudi Arabia

BC_chick · January 5, 2016

I recall saying that: "They're both crazy, f*cked-up places." Now, I would say that they're crazy in their own way. As Tolstoi once said about unhappy families.

The ruling class in both countries is "f^cked up" but people of Iran are way more secular than SA where the nationals are fervent radicals.

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21628596-ordinary-iranians-are-losing-interest-mosque-take-it-or-leave-it

As for the ruling party, you have one hotbed of religious craziness espousing their disdain while the other funds terrorism around the world while double-talking.

I'd say it's a tie for the ruling class and one for Iran for its nationals. Iran wins.

August1991 · January 5, 2016

As usual, what a thread!

The ruling class in both countries is "f^cked up" but people of Iran are way more secular than SA where the nationals are fervent radicals.

Iran is arguably more "secular" than KSA - but look up the word secular. To put this in western perspective, Iranian Shiites are southern, passionate people who feel like victims whereas Saudi Sunnites are northern people who feel entitled.

What's wrong with the Middle-East region is too many fingers in the pot, too many outsiders sticking their nose...

One hears this often, and it's false. If your neighbours have a domestic dispute, a wife may at one point blame a husband for listening too often to the mother, or a neighbour - implicating you in their dispute. IME, family disputes in general are, well, family disputes.

More pernicious, I see some self-centered Westerners projecting their own beliefs onto others. I did it above.

=====

As to the Thirty Years War, like this beheading in Saudi Arabia, it started with one set of Christians killing a few other Christians (the Defenestration of Prague). But the turning point was when Sweden (a Protestant country) got involved about 15 years into the war. BTW, it was arguably the last time that Sweden intervened in European affairs. The Swedes were neutral during WWII.

Edited January 5, 2016 by August1991

CITIZEN_2015 · January 5, 2016

The BIG different between Saudi Arabia and Iran is that in Iran the people are progressive and secular (the majority are) and fighting their way hard for reforms and a democratic secular government but in Saudi Arabia both the government and the people are religious fanatics and believe in inequality of women and hate for other religions. Not to mention Iran government is by far more progressive and that shows the milestones women have achieved in Iran under Islamic government becoming doctors and engineers and running companies and professors and MPs and vice presidents whereas in Arabia they can't even drive or vote. Not to mention Saudi regime is a western puppet whereas Iran's standing up to arrogant west and western attempt to dominate.

Edited January 5, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

Argus · January 5, 2016

If Saudi Arabia was a western puppet it wouldn't be spending billions around the world to espouse a brutal, extremist religious view which portrays westerners as evil and godless.

Iran, btw, according to Amnesty International, executed over 700 people in just the first half of last year. It's feigned outrage over the Saudis executing a cleric or two is rank hypocrisy.

Topaz · January 5, 2016

Sure doesn't....the House of Saud has been allied with the United States for a very long time.

The USA gets lot of hatred from Canada too....so what ?

I don't think most Canadians hate the people of the US, its the US government and some of its agencies that are corrupt, and creates wars, for its own interests. You may need a reality check about your own country and the people who do/have run it.

bush_cheney2004 · January 5, 2016

I don't think most Canadians hate the people of the US, its the US government and some of its agencies that are corrupt, and creates wars, for its own interests. You may need a reality check about your own country and the people who do/have run it.

Sorry, but that won't fly...never did. Hate has been coming from Canada for a long time for the government of the United States AND individual Americans. Saudi Arabia is a U.S. ally just like Canada, even when either screw up.

kactus · January 5, 2016

Sorry, but that won't fly...never did. Hate has been coming from Canada for a long time for the government of the United States AND individual Americans. Saudi Arabia is a U.S. ally just like Canada, even when either screw up.

You are comparing Saudi Arabia and its atrocious human rights record with Canada? How can a country that sponsored 911 attacks on US soil and many other terrorist activities be an ally of US?

Or maybe it is the more liberal thinking Canadian government that you despise.

Edited January 5, 2016 by kactus

bush_cheney2004 · January 5, 2016

You are comparing Saudi Arabia and its atrocious human rights record with Canada?

Yes...Canada still has "human rights" violations. Millenium Bomber came from Canada.

No matter, and still allied with the United States, just like Saudi Arabia. Canada is not allied with Iran last time I checked.

Moonlight Graham · January 5, 2016

The best outcome here is if Saudis and Iranians use the bombs we and the Russians sell them to blow each other up, and keep blowing each other up as we restock their weapons supplies so we can make a crapload of cash. Then when both sides have killed every last person in each country we can just waltz in some tanks and take their oil. Canadian Arabia we'll call it.

kactus · January 5, 2016

Yes...Canada still has "human rights" violations. Millenium Bomber came from Canada.

No matter, and still allied with the United States, just like Saudi Arabia. Canada is not allied with Iran last time I checked.

Let me ask you this. If UK's prime minister David Cameron changed its stance on Saudi Arabia and called off all diplomatic ties would US still see SA as an ally?

bush_cheney2004 · January 5, 2016

Let me ask you this. If UK's prime minister David Cameron changed its stance on Saudi Arabia and called off all diplomatic ties would US still see SA as an ally?

Yes. Do you think the United Kingdom determines U.S. foreign policy ?

kactus · January 5, 2016

Yes. Do you think the United Kingdom determines U.S. foreign policy ?

To a certain degree yes...at least as far as this is concerned.

kactus · January 5, 2016

The best outcome here is if Saudis and Iranians use the bombs we and the Russians sell them to blow each other up, and keep blowing each other up as we restock their weapons supplies so we can make a crapload of cash. Then when both sides have killed every last person in each country we can just waltz in some tanks and take their oil. Canadian Arabia we'll call it.

History will not repeat itself. Iran has already had an eight war with Iraq financed by the West and Russians.

bush_cheney2004 · January 5, 2016

To a certain degree yes...at least as far as this is concerned.

I think not....the U.S. developed stronger strategic interest(s) in Saudi Arabia many decades ago. See California Arabian Standard Oil Company / ARAMCO.

Big Guy · January 5, 2016

And when the shooting starts between the Sunni and Shia we will have a few Canadians in the air?

Get our troops home now!!!

Moonlight Graham · January 6, 2016

If Saudi Arabia was a western puppet it wouldn't be spending billions around the world to espouse a brutal, extremist religious view which portrays westerners as evil and godless.

Saudi Arabia is nobody's puppet. The US/West and S.A. have mutual interests in oil, and the required regional politics surrounding it. The US needs S.A. and S.A. needs the US. They're interdependent. Either of them could screw the other over very badly, just as either benefits greatly by their status quo relationship. The West puts up with S.A.'s shit because, well, it doesn't have much choice given alternatives. It's similar to the West's relationship with China. Mutual interdependence.

Hudson Jones · January 6, 2016

The Saudi monarchs support the Wahabists/Salafist tribes who directly support ISIS. The reason the monarchs turn a blind eye and give these tribes money, is to control their urge to revolt against them. They have been doing this since Saudi Arabia was created. The Saudi kings, much like many other monarchs and dictators were planted by the British.

This is sort of like how the West, lead by U.S. and the U.K. turn a blind eye to Saudi monarch's indirect support for ISIS. The Saudis have stable oil, money and they use this money to buy billions in weapons from U.S., the U.K., France and other European countries. The military industrial complex needs to be fed and it's rare that you will see any Western government jeopardizing these contracts.

So what will U.S. do? They certainly will not jeopardize the billions in military contracts to do the right thing; Which is to cut ties with one of the worst human rights abusers and the biggest funder of terrorist groups.

Iran, with or without U.S. coming in, is going to go through big changes. Europeans are already signing contracts with them as it's one of the biggest untouched markets in the world with a highly educated young population ready to burst.

Most likely, the U.S. will not take any sides. They'll continue to enjoy the divisions and instability of the middle east, which means they can sell more weapons, and then once the sanctions are officially lifted, the floodgates will open and the corporations will be rushing into Iran to set-up shops.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Hudson Jones

bush_cheney2004 · January 6, 2016

.....So what will U.S. do? They certainly will not jeopardize the billions in military contracts to do the right thing; Which is to cut ties with one of the worst human rights abusers and the biggest funder of terrorist groups.

Gee...that is the same thing Canada is doing...affirmed by the Liberals today. After all, a contract is a contract !

Rue · January 6, 2016

Hudson Jones why are you selective as to which human rights abusers you get your colon all in a knot over?

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Canada, the US, Israel, Britain, France, oh come now. Go find me a non human rights abuser on the UN roster please and get back to me.

Here's a hint-the UN is one big brothel. Good luck finding a virgin.

Hudson Jones · January 7, 2016

Gee...that is the same thing Canada is doing...affirmed by the Liberals today. After all, a contract is a contract !

I agree 100%. Canada should do the right thing. However, Canada doesn't really have a role or influence in this matter, right? So why even talk about them in this context?

August1991 · January 7, 2016

The BIG different between Saudi Arabia and Iran is that in Iran the people are progressive and secular (the majority are) and fighting their way hard for reforms and a democratic secular government but in Saudi Arabia both the government and the people are religious fanatics....

I agree. Years ago, after 1979, in the mid 1990s, I recall standing on the roof of a tall building looking at Tehran and listening to an Iranian tell me: "Iran is both western and eastern. Now, the eastern side is strong."

August1991 · January 7, 2016

The Saudi monarchs support the Wahabists/Salafist tribes who directly support ISIS. The reason the monarchs turn a blind eye and give these tribes money, is to control their urge to revolt against them. They have been doing this since Saudi Arabia was created. The Saudi kings, much like many other monarchs and dictators were planted by the British.

I disagree.

But you may have a point.

kactus · January 7, 2016

I think long term a strategic partnership between Iran and US work in favour of both countries than an alliance with Saudis.

Iranians are by far more secular than the Saudis. A recent article published in the Economist reiterates this. The population at large are more in tune with western values and there is a great potential market there....

We ought to question whether the US alliance with Saudis mainly based on oil serves them long-term and strategically in the region. Do we strike a cord a cord with a nation that is more in tune with our value systems or just sacrifice the alliance for the sake of oil?

kactus · January 7, 2016

I agree. Years ago, after 1979, in the mid 1990s, I recall standing on the roof of a tall building looking at Tehran and listening to an Iranian tell me: "Iran is both western and eastern. Now, the eastern side is strong."

...At the start of 1979 Revolution many factions played different roles. Communists (tudeh supported by many iranian jews), clergies, workers parties, MKO, etc.., Mullahs got the upper hand and beat other factions. In that sense one could argue that East won over West. But the reality the West played a key role in installing Khomeini. 1953 coup, exile of Khomeini in Paris and many more were just the starters...

eyeball · January 7, 2016

We ought to question whether the US alliance with Saudis mainly based on oil serves them long-term and strategically in the region. Do we strike a cord a cord with a nation that is more in tune with our value systems or just sacrifice the alliance for the sake of oil?

The US asked this question around 60 years ago and probably made what's amounted to the most monumental mistake in it's history. Bar none.