On Guard for Thee Posted December 12, 2015 Report Posted December 12, 2015 Try to keep in mind that the law in the United States or UK or Canada does not apply in Afghanistan or Iraq. The law in those countries is up to the locals, and may meet with your disapproval in may respects. We are talking international law here. The US wants everyone to abide by it, while they ignore it. Extrajudicial killing is illegal under that law.
DogOnPorch Posted December 12, 2015 Report Posted December 12, 2015 Not supporting any religion leaves me free to stand back and objectively assess what's going on. That's nice. And what's your objective conclusion about Islam? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted December 12, 2015 Report Posted December 12, 2015 Except, there isn't anyone here defending or excusing vile behavior; some just choose not to blame people for behavior that they neither indulge in or condone. First, how can you not blame people for vile behaviour? Second, when someone brings up vile behaviour, and a second party then starts frantically bringing up other things and trying to deflect the accusations and pretend it's not at all unusual or unique, they are, in effect, defending the people who are involved in that vile behaviour. I bet you'd rather have me hearing your case than someone who assumed all people named 'Argus' were homicidal by nature. But we're not talking about individuals. You're stating we shouldn't generalize, but when we're talking about groups generalizing is all you can do. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 12, 2015 Report Posted December 12, 2015 We are talking international law here. The US wants everyone to abide by it, while they ignore it. Extrajudicial killing is illegal under that law. Not within a war zone. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 12, 2015 Report Posted December 12, 2015 I haven't defended any behaviour. I disagree. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted December 12, 2015 Report Posted December 12, 2015 First, how can you not blame people for vile behaviour? You should re-read what I wrote. Second, when someone brings up vile behaviour, and a second party then starts frantically bringing up other things and trying to deflect the accusations and pretend it's not at all unusual or unique, they are, in effect, defending the people who are involved in that vile behaviour. My viewpoint is this: Extremists commit acts of brutality; they seek to impose their beliefs on people by any means possible, including with violence. Extremists can be from any group - Islamic, Jewish, Christian, White Supremists. I do not condone or support acts of brutality and terrorism carried out by extremists. Christians as a group tend to be peace-loving, and follow Biblical commands that enable them to live peacefully with others. They do not condone acts of terrorism carried out under the banner of Christianity. Muslims as a group tend to be peace-loving, and follow Mohammed's commands that enable them to live peacefully with others. They do not condone acts of terrorism carried out under the banner of Islam. You and others seem to prefer this: Muslims as a group are prone to violence and brutality; Muslims as a group are backward, and have stone-age mentality regarding human rights. Muslims support terrorism and even if they are moderate today, they are not likely to be moderate tomorrow. We will define all Muslims by the activity of the minority, and ignore or discount the exactly opposite actions by the other 1.5 BILLION PLUS Muslims. Christians are not like that. If anyone does carry out acts of brutality and terrorism under the Christian banner, they are obviously not Christians. We will define all Christians by the activity of the majority, and assume the activity by the minority is an aberration. But we're not talking about individuals. You're stating we shouldn't generalize, but when we're talking about groups generalizing is all you can do. Therein lies the problem. If you are going to generalize about the "group", you should at least generalize that the MAJORITY speaks for the group, not the minority. Since the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims live peaceful, tolerant lives within their own countries as well as in the West, why is there any claim at all that Muslims are inherently violent jihadists?
Argus Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) Christians as a group tend to be peace-loving, and follow Biblical commands that enable them to live peacefully with others. They do not condone acts of terrorism carried out under the banner of Christianity. Muslims as a group tend to be peace-loving, and follow Mohammed's commands that enable them to live peacefully with others. They do not condone acts of terrorism carried out under the banner of Islam. There seems no room in your narrative for the possibility that Christians as a group are not the same as Muslims as a group. There also seems to be no awareness that Christianity is based upon a peaceful prophet who who called upon all people to live in peace and brotherness, while Islam is based upon a warrior prince who slaughtered his enemies without mercy, raped their women and enslaved their children, then told his followers to despise all unbelievers. You seem to believe that regardless of the mentality and values preached by their founding 'prophets' the dedicated followers of both religions will inevitably be equally peaceful. There is no logic in that belief, and it requires that we ignore the reality around us. Edited December 13, 2015 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) There seems no room in your narrative for the possibility that Christians as a group are not the same as Muslims as a group. There also seems to be no awareness that Christianity is based upon a peaceful prophet who who called upon all people to live in peace and brotherness, while Islam is based upon a warrior prince who slaughtered his enemies without mercy, raped their women and enslaved their children, then told his followers to despise all unbelievers. You seem to believe that regardless of the mentality and values preached by their founding 'prophets' the dedicated followers of both religions will inevitably be equally peaceful. There is no logic in that belief, and it requires that we ignore the reality around us. The reality around us ... is a million peaceful Canadian Muslims.The reality elsewhere is millions of peaceful Muslims fleeing persecution by extremist terrorists. If I say I am taking your land or your head or your scalp 'in the name of God ... or Allah', does that make it a righteous Christian ... or Muslim ... act? You want to pretend one religion is superior to another. I believe religions are often co-opted to justify brutality. . Edited December 13, 2015 by jacee
dialamah Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 There seems no room in your narrative for the possibility that Christians as a group are not the same as Muslims as a group. There also seems to be no awareness that Christianity is based upon a peaceful prophet who who called upon all people to live in peace and brotherness, while Islam is based upon a warrior prince who slaughtered his enemies without mercy, raped their women and enslaved their children, then told his followers to despise all unbelievers. You seem to believe that regardless of the mentality and values preached by their founding 'prophets' the dedicated followers of both religions will inevitably be equally peaceful. There is no logic in that belief, and it requires that we ignore the reality around us. The only *religion* I am aware of that has never engaged in some degree of violent extremism is Buddhism, and as I know very little about Buddhism, I could be wrong about that. Every single other religion I know of teaches peace, forgiveness, tolerance. Every religion I know of fails their own teachings - sometimes horrifically. So, as far as I'm concerned there is very little difference between Islam and Christianity, both in what they teach and in how well their adherents follow those teachings. In the Bible there are some pretty horrific penalties for 'wrongdoing' in the old testament; in some places of the world, self-described Christians believe that's the way things should be done. There are a number of Christian sects who believe polygamy is perfectly acceptable, based on old testament scripture. And others who think marrying very young girls is ok, because you know - its in the Bible. The Christian religion has more adherents than Islam and an incredible variety of beliefs and practices. Most of these people do not kill non-believers, do not believe in polygamy, and do not marry young girls. But how would you like it if I claimed that as a group, Christians were inherently murderous pedophiles who enslaved women, because that's what their Holy Book said? You could bring up Jesus, and explain to me how they're supposed to just follow his teachings of peace, etc., but I could just brush that off with "Wrong, because even Jesus said that God's Laws were to be followed; just look at Matthew 5:17-19 where it clearly states that Jesus did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, and that those who do not follow the law of God will not gain God's favor". I've cherry picked a New Testament verse that allows me to impose the most brutal of God's laws .... The above is exactly the situation the Muslims are being put into. The majority of Muslims take the teachings of the Quran and the prophet about peace and tolerance to be the primary teachings, and the stuff about war as being context-and-time specific, not applicable to the modern world. It's people like you and ISIS who want to hold them to the worst of their religion today. It's people like you and Trump and ISIS who cherry-pick the portions of the Quran that command violence to support your own personal agenda. For Trump and ISIS it's political power through fear and divisiveness; for you and other Islamaphobes, its so you can clearly define *those* people as being different, foreign, scary, dangerous and ultimately unwelcome. ISIS wins with you and Trump on the job. Despite the plethora of religions who teach peace/tolerance/love for all, there is a certain segment of the human species who seem unable to take those lessons to heart regardless of which Holy Book they follow or what name they call their God, or even if they claim any kind of God.
ReeferMadness Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 The only *religion* I am aware of that has never engaged in some degree of violent extremism is Buddhism, and as I know very little about Buddhism, I could be wrong about that. Every single other religion I know of teaches peace, forgiveness, tolerance. Every religion I know of fails their own teachings - sometimes horrifically. So, as far as I'm concerned there is very little difference between Islam and Christianity, both in what they teach and in how well their adherents follow those teachings. There are Buddhist extremists too. Who knew? Any belief system can be perverted. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
dialamah Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) There are Buddhist extremists too. Who knew? Any belief system can be perverted. Figures. I'm thinking pot-smokers - surely there are no extremist potheads? Oops, not even potheads. Reefer Madness indeed. Edited December 13, 2015 by dialamah
ReeferMadness Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Figures. I'm thinking pot-smokers - surely there are no extremist potheads? Oops, not even potheads. Reefer Madness indeed. That's not me. I swear!! Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
WestCanMan Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 And I seriously doubt that. Here's where you'll find daily tracking of LRA activities - how often do you see these stories on the evening news? Now what can we find on Islamic extremists? According to this Wikipedia list, about 17,000 people have died from Islamic terror attacks since the 1980s. In addition, Breitbart claims that ISIS has killed 10,000 people since declaring Caliphate in 2014. So, if these numbers are anything to go by, over the last 35 years, a single Christian extremist group has out-killed all the Islamic extremists by 70,000 or thereabouts. Islamic extremism is on the rise, so obviously at some point they'll surpass the Christians in death toll. Still, it boggles my mind that anyone could think that Christianity is any less violent than Islam or that it's adherents are any less likely to use violence should it suit their agenda. The LRA isn't a Christian entity killing muslims and other non-christians, and it was formed in the wake of the carnage left behind by Idi Amin in Uganda. Kony didn't invent that type of behavior, he was born into it. From the Wikipedia Lord's Resistance Army page: During the Christmas of 2008, the LRA massacred at least 143 people and abducted 180 at a concert celebration sponsored by the Catholic Church in Faradje in the Democratic Republic of Congo,[34] and struck several other communities in the near-simultaneous attacks: 75 people were murdered in a church near Dungu, at least 80 were killed in Batande, 48 in Bangadi, and 213 in Gurba.[35][36][37] By August 2009, the LRA terror in this country resulted in displacing as many as 320,000 Congolese, exposing them to a threat of famine, according to UNICEF director Ann Veneman.[38] That same month, the LRA attacked a Catholic church in Ezo, South Sudan, on the Feast of the Assumption, with reports of victims being crucified, causing Ugandan Archbishop John Baptist Odama to call on the international community for help in finding a peaceful solution to the crisis The LRA are a bunch of wild dogs who noone understands completely, their stated goals are ridiculous and don't follow an agenda that's clearly in favour of anyone or any cause aside from murder and rape. To say that he's a christian killing muslims is a fabrication according to what Wikipedia says about him. If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
On Guard for Thee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Not within a war zone. Yep. Geneva and Hague Conventions for a start. But as I say the US regularly ignores them. One reason jr. Bush/Cheney etc are reluctant to travel internationally. They broke a number of international laws in Iraq, to start with.
WestCanMan Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Despite the plethora of religions who teach peace/tolerance/love for all, there is a certain segment of the human species who seem unable to take those lessons to heart regardless of which Holy Book they follow or what name they call their God, or even if they claim any kind of God. If you look at "religions" from 20,000 feet above they are all just selling snake oil for the soul in exchange for power and wealth. The 1950's version of Christianity in North America went something like "Your granny just went to heaven because she paid the tithe. You want a spot in heaven for your dog and your mommy too don't ya boy? Just do what we say." A follower of Isil would say "The Sheikh just told me that I will get 140 virgins in heaven if I become a martyr. He knows a lot about virgins, he buys 20 of them every week." It's old school mind control because microchips didn't exist back when evil men were finding bigger and better ways of rising to power. Every religion contains the mechanisms to turn their peaceful souls into cold-blooded murderers. Maybe the christians of europe and north america are just fat and happy by comparison to the average muslim right now (fat and happy is an actual thing, just think about how happy hungry humans/animals are), but they are not as involved in murdering for their religion at this point in time. If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
eyeball Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 There are Buddhist extremists too. Who knew? Any belief system can be perverted. Any human can be deluded. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 If you look at "religions" from 20,000 feet above they are all just selling snake oil for the soul in exchange for power and wealth. The 1950's version of Christianity in North America went something like "Your granny just went to heaven because she paid the tithe. You want a spot in heaven for your dog and your mommy too don't ya boy? Just do what we say." A follower of Isil would say "The Sheikh just told me that I will get 140 virgins in heaven if I become a martyr. He knows a lot about virgins, he buys 20 of them every week." It's old school mind control because microchips didn't exist back when evil men were finding bigger and better ways of rising to power. Every religion contains the mechanisms to turn their peaceful souls into cold-blooded murderers. Maybe the christians of europe and north america are just fat and happy by comparison to the average muslim right now (fat and happy is an actual thing, just think about how happy hungry humans/animals are), but they are not as involved in murdering for their religion at this point in time. Wow, are they up to 140 virgins now?
ReeferMadness Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Wow, are they up to 140 virgins now? The "virgin inflation" makes it more and more tempting all the time. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
On Guard for Thee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 The "virgin inflation" makes it more and more tempting all the time. Yeah, at 72 I was kinda hemming and hawing, but at 140, I'm in.
WestCanMan Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 lol. I have no idea what it's at. Even 2 is b-s so why not 140? I even find the idea of living for eternity a bit awkward. What could actually be entertaining enough to do over and over again for 10,000 years? When I think about all the things I loved as a kid I have no desire to do most of them anymore even tho I still could fi I wanted. Water-skiing and skiing for example. Just such a waste of time now. If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
HughTrenchard Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Yes, it was the discourse of Harper, not unlike that of Donald Trump, that seems to give permission to thugs to act out racist attitudes.Hopefully that kind of sentiment will be reduced in the more open environment fostered by Trudeau, but that could be naive.
dialamah Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) The LRA isn't a Christian entity killing muslims and other non-christians, and it was formed in the wake of the carnage left behind by Idi Amin in Uganda. Kony didn't invent that type of behavior, he was born into it. From the Wikipedia Lord's Resistance Army page: The LRA are a bunch of wild dogs who noone understands completely, their stated goals are ridiculous and don't follow an agenda that's clearly in favour of anyone or any cause aside from murder and rape. To say that he's a christian killing muslims is a fabrication according to what Wikipedia says about him. Hard to say how far back humans 'invented' brutality, certainly well before the written word, sacred or otherwise. I agree that Kony's behavior cannot really be classified as "Christian" despite his original manifesto of setting up a government based on the ten commandments. But then, I don't think ISIL, Boko Haram or Al Queda can really be classified as "Islam" either. If you look at "religions" from 20,000 feet above they are all just selling snake oil for the soul in exchange for power and wealth. It's old school mind control because microchips didn't exist back when evil men were finding bigger and better ways of rising to power. Every religion contains the mechanisms to turn their peaceful souls into cold-blooded murderers. Maybe the christians of europe and north america are just fat and happy by comparison to the average muslim right now (fat and happy is an actual thing, just think about how happy hungry humans/animals are), but they are not as involved in murdering for their religion at this point in time. Pretty much. Perhaps if the Middle East and Africa weren't so 'hungry', literally and figuratively, we'd not be in this pickle. I know some ME nations have plenty of oil money, but still the majority of the people in that region are much poorer than the average Westerner. lol. I have no idea what it's at. Even 2 is b-s so why not 140? I even find the idea of living for eternity a bit awkward. What could actually be entertaining enough to do over and over again for 10,000 years? When I think about all the things I loved as a kid I have no desire to do most of them anymore even tho I still could fi I wanted. Water-skiing and skiing for example. Just such a waste of time now. That is a big part of the reason I am no longer a fundamentalist Christian. I simply could not imagine what I'd do for eternity, especially if I ended up in Heaven, at God's right hand; apparently, singing/praising Him and simply being in His presence was supposed to suffice. My particular sect taught that the earth would be returned to a paradise, where, literally, the "wolf would lie with the lamb" and "death would be no more" for all the righteous who didn't make it into Heaven - that was a lot more interesting to me. Nonetheless, I was happy that there was an 'out' of immortality: after a thousand years, there would be a final test. I figured if I was bored after that first thousand years, I would just fail that test. Edited December 13, 2015 by dialamah
DogOnPorch Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Yeah, at 72 I was kinda hemming and hawing, but at 140, I'm in. Islam doesn't REALLY teach that killing and dying in the name of Allah gives you a fast track to the head table with the associated trappings of said martyrdom. No sir... Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Islam doesn't REALLY teach that killing and dying in the name of Allah gives you a fast track to the head table with the associated trappings of said martyrdom. No sir... Amazing how many experts on Islam we seem to have here.
ReeferMadness Posted December 13, 2015 Report Posted December 13, 2015 Yeah, at 72 I was kinda hemming and hawing, but at 140, I'm in. I know! They had me at 110. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
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