Smallc Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 It means a few of us are able to speak on this topic from a position of knowledge, while you (like some others) are not. You may have extensive knowledge of the bible, but it's clear you have very little knowledge of the Quran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Oh? It was the Prophet Muhammad that once said: "Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself." The Qur'an says: "There is no compulsion in religion." http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/meliha-hayat/why-the-prophet-muhammad-would-condemn-violence_b_6433120.html It seems that everyone gets from each religion what they want. An excellent example of taqiyya. You'll note that she didn't actually name the Sura that forgiveness quote is from. Why? Because it's not in there. It's an apocryphal saying that later Muslims claim was inscribed on Mohammed's sword -- the sword he used to murder people with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 You may have extensive knowledge of the bible, but it's clear you have very little knowledge of the Quran. I've read it -- have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Indeed, Allah is with those who are righteous and those who do good. (Al Quran 16:129) There are all kinds of websites. It's not a good idea to be untruthful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Indeed, Allah is with those who are righteous and those who do good. (Al Quran 16:129) There are all kinds of websites. It's not a good idea to be untruthful. Not websites: I own two copies of it, as well as several study commentaries. Being untruthful? Yes, bad for most people. A doctrine of their faith for Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I disagree. Do these states that "Identify primarily as Christian" go out and kill because their God told them to. Is blasphemy punishable by death in the UK, Canada and the US? How about Homosexuality? Apostasy? Will women ever be allowed to vote in those countries, the same way they are now allowed to vote in Saudi Arabia? I hope so, don't you? The countries that identify as primarily Christian go out and kill because we have an ideology that informs us of our superiority over these other countries. Our ideology is about freedom/democracy/human rights, so we can feel morally justified. In actuality, we Christian nations pursue a much uglier ideology, focused on oil, capitalism and self-interest. How is ISIS any different? They cloak their ugly ideology in one of moral superiority and deal out death and destruction as a result. It is a fair point, though, the one you make about the individual, and one I have made myself. I asked the question the way I did because your post stated Christianity was just as flawed as Islam. If you want to carry on the thought about individuals, I put it to you that currently, there are far more flawed Muslims than Christians. How would you know? If a woman in Canada kills her kids because "Jesus told her to" that's a 'flawed Christian", but we call her crazy and discount her claim to Christianity. I've mentioned before that Christians in African and Middle Eastern countries are exactly as likely to perform FGM on their daughters as are Muslims; Christians in those regions also practice honor killings - how many flawed Christians does that add up to? How many flawed Christians around the world believe it's their *duty* to kill gay men and rape lesbians? Or to impose severe penalties on non-believers? There are dozens of active Christian terrorist groups around the world, which rarely make the evening news so we're essentially blind to their activity. How can you count those flawed individuals if you don't know they exist? Until the Western media starts counting up violent acts by Christians the same way they count up violent acts by Muslims, we have no idea who has more "flawed" individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Jesus categorically denounced violence, and he lived by example. Mohammed ordered his followers to commit violence and he lived by example. Jesus said "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the world; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34. We in the West have certainly taken that to heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 How would you know? I have to admit I am only going by what I hear, and read, and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Jesus said "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the world; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34. We in the West have certainly taken that to heart. Do you know what the sword that Jesus speaks of is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Free speech, criticism and debating is good. Generalization based on ignorance is a waste of time and counter productive. The biggest problem here is that there are people who label and generalize and "paint a whole group with one stroke". I know Muslims and I know how wrong these bigots are. I am not going to accept grouping 1.5 billion as one. I am not going to accept, expecting Muslims to apologize for extremists. Hudson I don't doubt that you know some very nice muslims who appreciate the country that they live in, and that in most cases first-hand experience trumps what you would chalk up to "the assumptions of Islamophobes". I would even agree that westerners are overly active in the middle east, and that racial tensions between Muslims and Westerners will cause some unnecessary problems. But the big picture isn't "Hudson knows some nice Muslims who assure him that they are peaceful people". It's the last 2,000 years of human history, it's the widespread terrorism and genocides of the modern era, the blatant & legalized attacks on every other culture or religion within Muslim-dominated nations, the universal lack of respect for women within their culture, the problems that are arising in every nation where the Islam population starts to get up past 15%, etc. What you know about Muslims or Islam first-hand qualifies as an extremely small sample size in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I have to admit I am only going by what I hear, and read, and see. Is any of this stuff that you hear, read and see presented by Western media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Do you know what the sword that Jesus speaks of is? I do. And if I were a Christian intent on punishing others for their improper behavior, I could easily use that single verse to justify deadly force. You might then call me not really a Christian, but I would still have used your holy book to justify my homicidal behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Is any of this stuff that you hear, read and see presented by Western media? Sure is. Lies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Jesus said "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the world; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34. We in the West have certainly taken that to heart. If Donald Trump went on the podium and quoted certain sections of the Old Testament word for word tomorrow it would be a new low for him. The thing is laced with anti-PC sentiments that would never make it past our current Canadian standards for publication. I will say this for Christians tho, my Atheism has never made me fear for my life here. Sikhs here in western Canada fit in like they were here for centuries. What passes for a really bad racial incident here would never make it to court in most other countries in the world, would barely be worth mentioning. It's popular to bash police now in North America, bash christians, to assume that whites were the only slavers in human history, and the only racists, etc. Fact is that this IS the greatest place on earth for accepting outsiders and I doubt that any other civilization has ever been close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) I do. And if I were a Christian intent on punishing others for their improper behavior, I could easily use that single verse to justify deadly force. You might then call me not really a Christian, but I would still have used your holy book to justify my homicidal behavior. You could, and you would still be a Christian. Let's face it, if you used that verse, how could you be anything else? Edited December 12, 2015 by bcsapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 if I were a Christian intent on punishing others for their improper behavior, I could easily use that single verse to justify deadly force. No you couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 No you couldn't. He could. He doesn't have to be right. That's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 The countries that identify as primarily Christian go out and kill because we have an ideology that informs us of our superiority over these other countries. Our ideology is about freedom/democracy/human rights, so we can feel morally justified. In actuality, we Christian nations pursue a much uglier ideology, focused on oil, capitalism and self-interest. How is ISIS any different? They cloak their ugly ideology in one of moral superiority and deal out death and destruction as a result. How is ISIS different dialamah? I think genocide is the main difference. Their stated goal of mass killings. Yeah that's my final answer Alex. I find it amusing that Trudeau's biggest supporter is also an ISIS supporter. How would you know? If a woman in Canada kills her kids because "Jesus told her to" that's a 'flawed Christian", but we call her crazy and discount her claim to Christianity. I've mentioned before that Christians in African and Middle Eastern countries are exactly as likely to perform FGM on their daughters as are Muslims; Christians in those regions also practice honor killings - how many flawed Christians does that add up to? How many flawed Christians around the world believe it's their *duty* to kill gay men and rape lesbians? Or to impose severe penalties on non-believers? There are dozens of active Christian terrorist groups around the world, which rarely make the evening news so we're essentially blind to their activity. How can you count those flawed individuals if you don't know they exist? Until the Western media starts counting up violent acts by Christians the same way they count up violent acts by Muslims, we have no idea who has more "flawed" individuals. If a woman kills... facepalm. What a horrible analogy. When something falls so wildly outside of statistical probability that it's way beyond what can be predicted by the standard of deviation then it's safe to say that the event in question is usually not a part of the group that you are trying to fit it in. In the civilized world, christians and other cultures manage to maintain standards that are well above anything that exists in the muslim dominated nations. I'm talking about muslim nations where their religion has been dominant for an entire millennia, and where stability could be expected. Compare Austria and Saudi Arabia, or France and Iraq, Iran and Japan. Your post is approaching a Trumpian level, albeit from the diametrically opposite side of the spectrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 He could. He doesn't have to be right. That's the point. There's a fundamental difference. Someone committing terrorist acts is directly disobeying Jesus. He's not a following Christ by any measure. Someone committing terrorist acts in the name of Allah is following Mohammed to the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 There's a fundamental difference. Someone committing terrorist acts is directly disobeying Jesus. He's not a following Christ by any measure. Someone committing terrorist acts in the name of Allah is following Mohammed to the letter. Read the friggin bible and get back to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Read the friggin bible and get back to us. I think Jesus was the good cop in the bible. Most of the bad cop sentiment comes from God afaik, but Im no bible scholar, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I think Jesus was the good cop in the bible. Most of the bad cop sentiment comes from God afaik, but Im no bible scholar, My point was in reference to the idea that people who follow the Koran are somehow more violent than the same dolts who follow the bible. Bigots don't seem to be able to see beyond the ends of their noses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Read the friggin bible and get back to us. I've read it several times. Unlike you, I even know the context that passages were written in, and who they do and do not apply to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Sure is. Lies? No, Western media just doesn't also include the same focus and framing for acts of violence motivated by non-Islamic ideologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I've read it several times. Unlike you, I even know the context that passages were written in, and who they do and do not apply to. Well the you should understand the violence it suggests is no less vicious than what some read from the Koran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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