Guest Posted July 30, 2017 Report Posted July 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, jacee said: Gee! I'm sorry I missed that! That would be a little hair raising. bcsapper have you asked any Muslim women whether they want you speaking for them? Just curious ... I found it soooooo amusing that in the last decade or so, the men who were so stridently anti-feminist for decades suddenly and miraculously became feminists. It's so hypocritical. Because it isn't about women's rights at all. It's just another tactic in your anti-Muslim campaigns. I really think you should stop disingenuously pretending to speak on behalf of Muslim women. It's just really tacky. No, you see, that's you speaking for me. You claim to know my motives so you can continue to set your hair on fire instead of actually caring. I have not asked any Muslim women if they want me speaking for them. Nevertheless, I am nearly sixty years old, grew up in Bradford, England, and spent some time in the middle east. I don't need to ask. You, on the other hand, need to deflect in the manner above because you don't have the courage to actually face up to the contradictions this creates in your liberal mind. You would have to accept that people other than white folks are worthy of criticism, and that it's okay for the white folks to actually do the critcising. And that won't do at all. Fire extinguishers are not cheap. So go ahead and pretend they are all wearing burkas because they want to. It's easier for you.
marcus Posted July 30, 2017 Report Posted July 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Argus said: It's not that we are scared of Muslims. It's that, unlike you, we are quite fond of Canada, and our secular, sophisticated Western culture and value system. You approach things from a different mindset in that you despise Canada and all Western nations and values and want them to be destroyed in favour of some kind of Marxist utopia you imagine will be better - and probably less prone to influence from Jews. You see Muslims as your natural aid in breaking down Western society and values and bringing about anarchy. Thus our opposition on this issue. Wow. That's quite the statement. Your b.s. comment about what I want or think aside, in case you didn't know, your 'mindset', based on your statement is bigoted. So you are scared that Muslims will 'change Canada' to something that you're not comfortable with. Like a stereotypical scared white guy in the bible belt, who is only capable of seeing Muslims as a caricature. The same scared white guy voted for Trump, thinking that he will save America and turn back the clock to some fantasy period. This isolated white man thinks that the shitty things that are happening are because of immigrants and 'the other people'. Because it's always easier to blame the unfamiliar. When a car company decides to take its factory to Mexico, because the CEO can make more money for the shareholders and for himself, and the white guy loses his job, that's not because of Muslims or immigrants. When jobs are lost because robots can do the job better and cheaper, it's not because of Muslims. When a greasy burger joint goes out of business and a Shwarma joint pops up, well, that's probably because of a Lebanese Muslim. Guess what. Muslims who come from many different backgrounds and cultures have already changed Canada. So have Indians, Chinese, Filipinos, Spanish, Italians, Mexicans, the Irish, etc. etc. Most of this change has been for the good. You cannot stop change. Humans who accept that change is something you cannot stop, instead of being scared of it, end up succeeding better in life. I live in something close to a utopia. I live in Vancouver, where most people, instead of having fears like you do, which limit your learning and experiences, embrace different cultures. I love having people with different backgrounds, including Muslims, who again, come from different cultures, over to our summer bbq's. They add culture and sophistication to what we already have. This is what life is all about. It's to explore and learn. To adopt a better way to do things and leave behind the negatives. Last month, I learned to make an amazing rice dish from an Iranian. God damn my rice is so damn delicious. I'm also playing chess again and have picked up backgammon because of the Iranian friend. These interactions have also reminded me that we have more in common than we think. We all want the best for our families, our neighbours and the world. It's a great feeling. I feel sorry for people who are too scared and refuse to explore someone that may look different and might do some things differently. The good news is that they will be pushed aside and forgotten through natural progression. Migration, which has been going on for as long as humans have been around is part of progression and the evolving of the human race. The scared people who don't follow this natural system will eventually be pushed aside, because most of their children will have a different experience and perspective. 1 "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
jacee Posted July 30, 2017 Report Posted July 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, bcsapper said: No, you see, that's you speaking for me. You claim to know my motives so you can continue to set your hair on fire instead of actually caring. I have not asked any Muslim women if they want me speaking for them. Nevertheless, I am nearly sixty years old, grew up in Bradford, England, and spent some time in the middle east. I don't need to ask. You, on the other hand, need to deflect in the manner above because you don't have the courage to actually face up to the contradictions this creates in your liberal mind. You would have to accept that people other than white folks are worthy of criticism, and that it's okay for the white folks to actually do the critcising. And that won't do at all. Fire extinguishers are not cheap. So go ahead and pretend they are all wearing burkas because they want to. It's easier for you. "All"? I see a lot of Muslim women in my city, only a very few in burkas. I worked for a Muslim woman, a senior manager. I have had Muslim men and women doctors as houseguests. None of them fit your stereotype, and it's unlikely that any of them want you speaking for them. You do need to ask. Because what you have been saying doesn't seem to me to represent the reality of Muslim Canadians. Instead, it just sounds like generalized smearing of a people/culture/religion based on stereotypes mired in extremism. Edited July 30, 2017 by jacee 1
Guest Posted July 30, 2017 Report Posted July 30, 2017 21 minutes ago, jacee said: "All"? I see a lot of Muslim women in my city, only a very few in burkas. I worked for a Muslim woman, a senior manager. I have had Muslim men and women doctors as houseguests. None of them fit your stereotype, and it's unlikely that any of them want you speaking for them. You do need to ask. Because what you have been saying doesn't seem to me to represent the reality of Muslim Canadians. Instead, it just sounds like generalized smearing of a people/culture/religion based on stereotypes mired in extremism. I wasn't talking about Muslim Canadians, I was talking about Muslims. (Actually, I was talking about hippies. You brought up specifics) But that being said, if we are talking about Muslims, I wouldn't limit it to Canadians. Why would you? Question: Do you really believe an oppressed person/group should have to ask before someone speaks up for them? Channeling Martin Niemöller? At least he came to his senses. I most certainly do not need to ask. And as for your last sentence, I don't believe it sounds like that to you at all. I just believe you'd rather not confront the truth.
jacee Posted July 30, 2017 Report Posted July 30, 2017 31 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I wasn't talking about Muslim Canadians, I was talking about Muslims. (Actually, I was talking about hippies. You brought up specifics) But that being said, if we are talking about Muslims, I wouldn't limit it to Canadians. Why would you? Question: Do you really believe an oppressed person/group should have to ask before someone speaks up for them? Channeling Martin Niemöller? At least he came to his senses. I most certainly do not need to ask. And as for your last sentence, I don't believe it sounds like that to you at all. I just believe you'd rather not confront the truth. This discussion is about "Islamophobia in Canada". Your claim to speak for Muslim Canadian women ... to tell them what they should and shouldn't do, wear and be ... is disingenuous, sexist, and Islamophobic, imo. 1
Guest Posted July 30, 2017 Report Posted July 30, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, jacee said: This discussion is about "Islamophobia in Canada". Your claim to speak for Muslim Canadian women ... to tell them what they should and shouldn't do, wear and be ... is disingenuous, sexist, and Islamophobic, imo. I never remember or care what the thread title is. I made a point about hippies, such as yourself, which you ably confirmed. I will always say what I think about religious oppression. It doesn't matter to me whether or not it's about Muslims. It just so happens that religion deserves it more than others. You go ahead and pretend it doesn't. Edit>. But while we're on the subject, is it your contention that Muslim women in Canada all wear exactly what they want? Edited July 30, 2017 by bcsapper
jacee Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, bcsapper said: I never remember or care what the thread title is. I made a point about hippies, such as yourself, which you ably confirmed. I will always say what I think about religious oppression. It doesn't matter to me whether or not it's about Muslims. It just so happens that religion deserves it more than others. You go ahead and pretend it doesn't. Edit>. But while we're on the subject, is it your contention that Muslim women in Canada all wear exactly what they want? I don't speak for them, but that's my experience to date, a lot of young professionals in blue jeans, who grew up here. Where there are issues, there are resources, legal processes, support. Edited July 31, 2017 by jacee 1
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, jacee said: I don't speak for them, but that's my experience to date, a lot of young professionals in blue jeans. Where there are issues, there are resources, legal processes, support. Sure, I know some of those as well. One of them can never speak to her father again, because he will kill her. Literally. She says. Of course, she's gay too.
jacee Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Sure, I know some of those as well. One of them can never speak to her father again, because he will kill her. Literally. She says. Of course, she's gay too. You get it. It takes a generation for change. And she is free here. It works, but it takes time.
OftenWrong Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 5 hours ago, jacee said: I found it soooooo amusing that in the last decade or so, the men who were so stridently anti-feminist for decades suddenly and miraculously became feminists. It's so hypocritical. Because it isn't about women's rights at all. It's just another tactic in your anti-Muslim campaigns. I really think you should stop disingenuously pretending to speak on behalf of Muslim women. It's just really tacky. I wouldn't say that anti-feminism was prevalent a decade or so ago. Feminism began to take hold in the 1970's but became increasing more mainstream by the 1980's. That is my subjective opinion because I lived through it, and it is supported by this articlehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Mid-twentieth_century So I doubt that any men who are here are that archaic as to be anti-feminist. It's undeniable that the middle-eastern is culturally misogynist, compared to the west.
jacee Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 9 hours ago, OftenWrong said: I wouldn't say that anti-feminism was prevalent a decade or so ago. Feminism began to take hold in the 1970's but became increasing more mainstream by the 1980's. That is my subjective opinion because I lived through it, and it is supported by this articlehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Mid-twentieth_century So I doubt that any men who are here are that archaic as to be anti-feminist. It's undeniable that the middle-eastern is culturally misogynist, compared to the west. Those who were still anti-feminist - eg, who are incapable of seeing sexual harassment for what it is, or who think women 'deserve' to be raped if they go to a man's place - when burkas appeared, they suddenly wanted to rip them off to protect the poor women from the oppression of their MUSLIM husbands. It's disingenuous. They are not trying to protect women. It's just anti-Muslim. 1
Argus Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, marcus said: Wow. That's quite the statement. Your b.s. comment about what I want or think aside, in case you didn't know, your 'mindset', based on your statement is bigoted. Having a sense of judgement is not the same as being 'bigoted'. This is the thing you people on the far left have never understood. Quote So you are scared that Muslims will 'change Canada' to something that you're not comfortable with. Like a stereotypical scared white guy in the bible belt, who is only capable of seeing Muslims as a caricature. The same scared white guy voted for Trump, thinking that he will save America and turn back the clock to some fantasy period. As I said a few times already, the people who voted Trump were not so much hoping he would save them from Mexicans and Muslims as reacting to you and your type. It is the rigid, far left identity politics that so many ordinary people react to with dismay and contempt. When Trump's supporters delight in him saying outrageous things it isn't because they hate Mexicans, it's because they hate you. Quote Guess what. Muslims who come from many different backgrounds and cultures have already changed Canada. Well, there is more violent crime now. I'll give you that. I'm at a loss for what other way they've changed Canada so far, other than increasing the amount of antisemitism. Quote I live in something close to a utopia. I live in Vancouver, Wouldn't even want to visit. This is really more of what I posted some time ago, about the different personalities of people, and what they like. Certain types tend to like new things, they're flighty and don't think much about tomorrow. They like to play, and enjoy life. There's no serious thought among them and you can't build a society with them. Other types, like me, care about tradition and security, look to the future, and want to plan for the long term. We worry about the debt and want to ensure the country doesn't go to hell because we're proud of it and its accomplishments. Your kind, of course, having on real attachment or even liking for Canada, and knowing nothing about its history, don't care what happens to it, and all you can see from letting in masses of largely intolerant and rabidly religious people is they bring new types of restaurants with them. Thus the disagreement. Edited July 31, 2017 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 7:15 PM, scribblet said: Right it is, and I doubt that our current gov't would stand up to the type of Islamic demands they are getting elsewhere e.g. An Australian Muslim psychologist is calling for Australia to introduce special laws for followers of Islam. She believes Sharia law should be applied in Australia and anyone who disagrees is a bigot. Canada doesn't have the demographics yet but eventually we will, then watch out for the demands. The demands are already there and there will not be any form of legitimized/legalized Sharia Law in Canada. 1
Argus Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, jacee said: You get it. It takes a generation for change. And she is free here. It works, but it takes time. A nice theory but according to a recent survey the new generation of born-in-Canada Muslim women are more religious than those who came here and are more likely, not less, to wear burkas and hijabs. They are born here but their cultural value set is defiantly based in the sands of the middle east. And if you don't think that includes the subservience of women and a hatred for gays and Jews you're lying to yourself. Wearing those garments is a defiant rejection of Canadian values and an embracing of everything Islamism stands for, including the oppression of all who are not Muslims and all who do not live according to the tenets of Islam. If the Muslims of Canada had the power right now to decide how this society would be ordered the majority would want it to be an Islamic state with the laws of Islam, and applied with whatever force was necessary against Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Edited July 31, 2017 by Argus 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, GostHacked said: The demands are already there and there will not be any form of legitimized/legalized Sharia Law in Canada. Because our politicians aren't whores who salivate for the ethnic vote. And even as Muslim numbers continue to rise they won't kowtow to local ethnic leaders and grovel at their feet for votes. Because... uh... because our politicians have such integrity. 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hydraboss Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 20 minutes ago, Argus said: When Trump's supporters delight in him saying outrageous things it isn't because they hate Mexicans, it's because they hate you. This is the most truthful statement in the whole damn thread. It also applies to Canada and the "right wing" population - the hatred is for those on the extreme left; not so much the people themselves as their apparent belief that the Canada of the somewhat recent past isn't worth retaining. I don't give a damn about muslims or any other religion or culture in particular - just stop telling me I'm a bigot, racist xenophobe. I'm not anti-"other culture", I'm anti-"anti-Canadian". 1 "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 On 2017-07-25 at 5:15 PM, scribblet said: Right it is, and I doubt that our current gov't would stand up to the type of Islamic demands they are getting elsewhere e.g. An Australian Muslim psychologist is calling for Australia to introduce special laws for followers of Islam. She believes Sharia law should be applied in Australia and anyone who disagrees is a bigot. Canada doesn't have the demographics yet but eventually we will, then watch out for the demands. Actually, she has a point. An article I read said that the Aussies had upheld some Jewish religious law at the expense of ordinary civil law. They shouldn't be doing that.
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Actually, she has a point. An article I read said that the Aussies had upheld some Jewish religious law at the expense of ordinary civil law. They shouldn't be doing that. The devil is in the details, as always. Hyperbolic hyperventilation on the left- and right- fringes shouldn't be a basis for anything other than asserting that our system works. If a 'psychologist' calls for Sharia Law, or a right-wing demagogue calls for banning Muslims then the system is set up to absorb this free expression and process it. I never understand how someone can trumpet core Western values such as pluralism, and yet be so afraid that they will not work. I suppose the flip side of the coin would be people trumpeting Multiculturalism, but rejecting the non-Western culture of a religious state. If you have a link to the issue please provide it. My Google search provided this one: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/rabbis-to-settle-jewish-disputes-in-special-court/news-story/08dda8afcd8c3b27eb7a45c518c65d01 As such, this looks like the same model Ontario had set up for religious folks to voluntarily engage a cleric to resolve civil disputes. Ontario ended up killing the idea, which bodes ill for religion generally. Whether or not such mechanisms are adopted isn't cause for alarm IMO. Christians, Muslims and Jews have already started to band together to fight against the imposition of state health values through sex education in Ontario. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: The devil is in the details, as always. Hyperbolic hyperventilation on the left- and right- fringes shouldn't be a basis for anything other than asserting that our system works. If a 'psychologist' calls for Sharia Law, or a right-wing demagogue calls for banning Muslims then the system is set up to absorb this free expression and process it. I never understand how someone can trumpet core Western values such as pluralism, and yet be so afraid that they will not work. I suppose the flip side of the coin would be people trumpeting Multiculturalism, but rejecting the non-Western culture of a religious state. If you have a link to the issue please provide it. My Google search provided this one: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/rabbis-to-settle-jewish-disputes-in-special-court/news-story/08dda8afcd8c3b27eb7a45c518c65d01 As such, this looks like the same model Ontario had set up for religious folks to voluntarily engage a cleric to resolve civil disputes. Ontario ended up killing the idea, which bodes ill for religion generally. Whether or not such mechanisms are adopted isn't cause for alarm IMO. Christians, Muslims and Jews have already started to band together to fight against the imposition of state health values through sex education in Ontario. Well, it was the Daily Mail. Bit embarrassing, but it was the first one that came up. I personally don't believe that either of them should get their way. I don't see how engaging a cleric to settle civil disputes is any different from engaging a neighbour to do the same, but where any such settlement results in a law being broken it should not be allowed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4722128/Muslim-psychologist-slams-hysteria-against-Sharia-law.html In this case, it was only for wrongful dismissal. http://sydneyinsolvencynews.com/rabbis-wrongful-dismissal/ As for the sex education in Ontario, they could leave, I guess. Edited July 31, 2017 by bcsapper
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, bcsapper said: 1) but where any such settlement results in a law being broken it should not be allowed. 2) As for the sex education in Ontario, they could leave, I guess. 1) I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. 2) The opposition in Ontario seems to come mainly from Christian groups, who allied with other religions in the cities. "They" is all three Abrahamic religions. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1) I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. 2) The opposition in Ontario seems to come mainly from Christian groups, who allied with other religions in the cities. "They" is all three Abrahamic religions. 1) I think that's the whole point. Otherwise, why bother? 2) Why should their kids be denied that which is available to others? An example of a law being broken if they refuse to send their kids to school?
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 17 minutes ago, bcsapper said: 1) I think that's the whole point. Otherwise, why bother? 2) Why should their kids be denied that which is available to others? An example of a law being broken if they refuse to send their kids to school? I'm unclear on your post. 1) The whole point being there have been suggestions of religious law being introduced, by credible individuals ? 2) The government has given parents an opt-out. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said: I'm unclear on your post. 1) The whole point being there have been suggestions of religious law being introduced, by credible individuals ? 2) The government has given parents an opt-out. I don't care about the application of religious law if it never results in anyone being treated differently. I disagree with the parents being given different treatment by being offered an opt out. Given that that is the sort of thing that would happen if religions were allowed their own laws, I would prefer that they were not. Any of them.
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, bcsapper said: 1) I don't care about the application of religious law if it never results in anyone being treated differently. 2) I disagree with the parents being given different treatment by being offered an opt out. Given that that is the sort of thing that would happen if religions were allowed their own laws, I would prefer that they were not. 1) It doesn't. Anyone can choose to have a cleric resolve their disputes. 2) Me too. Health matters are outside reasonable accommodation IMO but the religious lobby is still strong in Ontario. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, Michael Hardner said: 1) It doesn't. Anyone can choose to have a cleric resolve their disputes. 2) Me too. Health matters are outside reasonable accommodation IMO but the religious lobby is still strong in Ontario. Yes, but I think it would be naive to believe that all those involved were equally enthusiastic about going to a cleric for arbitration.
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