Islamophobia in Canada

[Argus]

1 minute ago, carepov said:

Islam in Canada is just a religion it is not a political movement.

You speak for Islam, do you?

1 minute ago, carepov said:

There are many reasons for Canadian Muslim women choose to wear the hijab.  You are the one that started the claim about Canadian women being forced to wear head coverings.  The burden of proof is on you.

I never said any such thing.

1 minute ago, carepov said:

I understand that people are devoted to Islam but in in Canada, Muslims do not stand for Islamism.

And you know this, how?

 

 

 

[carepov]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

Pride in Islam. Not pride in Canada.

In a 2016 Environics poll, 83% of Muslims were "very proud" to be Canadian, compared with 73% of non-Muslim Canadians who said the same thing. Canadian Muslims reported "Canada's freedom and democracy" as the greatest source of pride, and "multiculturalism and diversity" as the second greatest. 94% of Canadian Muslims reported a "strong" or "very strong" sense of belonging to Canada. 48% of Canadian Muslims attend mosque at least once a week. 53% of women wear some sort of head-covering in public (48% wear the hijab, 3% wear the chador and 2% wear the niqab). Both pride in being Canadian and having a strong sense of belonging had increased in Canadian Muslims as compared to a 2006 survey. Mosque attendance and wearing a head covering in public had also increased since the 2006 survey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Canada

 

[Omni]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

Cite?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

[carepov]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

I never said any such thing.

2 hours ago, Argus said:

I wish I were as easily convinced of that as you are. As far as I'm concerned the fact increasing numbers of Muslim Canadian women, now more than half, feel that they must wear head coverings, or even full face coverings indicates a much stronger belief in the dictates of political Islam. The need for women to cover up goes hand in hand with the belief in the moral failings and inferiority of women, which is supported by Sharia laws which allow women to be beaten, which discard their value in testimony in trials, and which require active discrimination against them.

 

[carepov]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

And you know this, how?

In case you or others have trouble connecting the dots:

One cannot be: ""very proud" to be Canadian", and have a ""strong" or "very strong" sense of belonging to Canada." and be an Islamist at the same time.  83 and 94 % of Canadians feel this way - therefore I conclude that Islam in Canada is not Islamism.

[Argus]

Just now, carepov said:

In a 2016 Environics poll, 83% of Muslims were "very proud" to be Canadian, compared with 73% of non-Muslim Canadians who said the same thing. Canadian Muslims reported "Canada's freedom and democracy" as the greatest source of pride, and "multiculturalism and diversity" as the second greatest. 94% of Canadian Muslims reported a "strong" or "very strong" sense of belonging to Canada. 48% of Canadian Muslims attend mosque at least once a week. 53% of women wear some sort of head-covering in public (48% wear the hijab, 3% wear the chador and 2% wear the niqab). Both pride in being Canadian and having a strong sense of belonging had increased in Canadian Muslims as compared to a 2006 survey. Mosque attendance and wearing a head covering in public had also increased since the 2006 survey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Canada

 

I'm not sure where you and the other progressives get the idea that because they're proud to be Canadian - though less so than to be Muslim - that they embrace all aspects of Canada's secular, tolerant culture. You'll notice the survey never asked them pointed question - like what do they think of Jews, or gays, or women who have sex outside of marriage, or whether they believed in a caliphate or sharia law.  A similar survey to the one you quote, for example, said 86% of British Muslims were proud to be British, which was also, like the survey above, greater than that of native born British. Even so, a quarter felt sympathy for the killings of the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo, and half felt homosexuality should be illegal and 39% felt wives must obey their husbands.  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, Omni said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

It says nothing about why they wear hijabs or burquas.

 

[carepov]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

I'm not sure where you and the other progressives get the idea that because they're proud to be Canadian - though less so than to be Muslim - that they embrace all aspects of Canada's secular, tolerant culture. You'll notice the survey never asked them pointed question - like what do they think of Jews, or gays, or women who have sex outside of marriage, or whether they believed in a caliphate or sharia law.  A similar survey to the one you quote, for example, said 86% of British Muslims were proud to be British, which was also, like the survey above, greater than that of native born British. Even so, a quarter felt sympathy for the killings of the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo, and half felt homosexuality should be illegal and 39% felt wives must obey their husbands.  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Canadian Muslims reported "Canada's freedom and democracy" as the greatest source of pride, and "multiculturalism and diversity" as the second greatest. 

To me this -especially the word diversity - says that they embrace all aspects of Canada's secular, tolerant culture.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

 half felt homosexuality should be illegal and 39% felt wives must obey their husbands.  

What are the Christian numbers?

[Argus]

Just now, carepov said:

Canadian Muslims reported "Canada's freedom and democracy" as the greatest source of pride, and "multiculturalism and diversity" as the second greatest. 

To me this -especially the word diversity - says that they embrace all aspects of Canada's secular, tolerant culture.

And yet that same survey said that while 86% of Canadians state homosexuality should be accepted by society only 36% of Muslims say so.

You realize the term diversity means different things to different people, right? It is likely to mean, to immigrants, that they are free to behave in whatever way they choose, ie, the same way as from the country they came from, and do not have to adopt Canadian ways.

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

What are the Christian numbers?

The story didn't mention, but the CBC story on Canadian Muslims OGFT posted said that while 86% of Canadians felt that homosexuality should be accepted by society only 36% of Muslims felt that way.

[Omni]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

It says nothing about why they wear hijabs or burquas.

 

That, as I said, was on CBC TV interviews.

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

It says nothing about why they wear hijabs or burquas.

 

If you ask them, they say they choose to.  Islamaphobes assume this means they are lying, that they are either forced to or that they are extremists.  Or maybe both.  

 

[carepov]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

And yet that same survey said that while 86% of Canadians state homosexuality should be accepted by society only 36% of Muslims say so.

You realize the term diversity means different things to different people, right? It is likely to mean, to immigrants, that they are free to behave in whatever way they choose, ie, the same way as from the country they came from, and do not have to adopt Canadian ways.

I agree that Canadian Muslims are behind the times when it comes to accepting homosexuality.  This is a problem and an opportunity for improvement via education.

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

If you ask them, they say they choose to.  Islamaphobes assume this means they are lying, that they are either forced to or that they are extremists.  Or maybe both. 

Islamophiles think choosing to wear the hijab is like choosing to wear a sweater, and lie to themselves and everyone else about what wearing it means.

[Argus]

Just now, carepov said:

I agree that Canadian Muslims are behind the times when it comes to accepting homosexuality.  This is a problem and an opportunity for improvement via education.

My point was that their views on social issues do not seem to be dissimilar to that of British Muslims. And as the New York Time said on that same survey:

“Looking deeper into the results, a chasm develops between those Muslims surveyed and the wider population on attitudes to liberal values on issues such as gender equality, homosexuality and issues relating to freedom of expression,” the network said in a statement. “And it also reveals significant differences on attitudes to violence and terrorism.”

Trevor Phillips, the former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, analyzed the results for Channel 4 and said in a statement that they showed Britain faced a threat of “the establishment of a nation within our nation.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.html?_r=0

[Omni]

Just now, Argus said:

Islamophiles think choosing to wear the hijab is like choosing to wear a sweater, and lie to themselves and everyone else about what wearing it means.

Where would you ever be without broad assumptions? If a Muslim woman in a CBC TV interview says she wears her hijab because she's proud of it, you seem to think you have some sort of crazy authority to deem her a liar because it doesn't suit your Islamophobic bias.

[Argus]

Just now, Omni said:

Where would you ever be without broad assumptions? If a Muslim woman in a CBC TV interview says she wears her hijab because she's proud of it, you seem to think you have some sort of crazy authority to deem her a liar because it doesn't suit your Islamophobic bias.

No, I simply have a different interpretation than you do on what wearing it out of pride means.

[carepov]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

My point was that their views on social issues do not seem to be dissimilar to that of British Muslims. And as the New York Time said on that same survey:

“Looking deeper into the results, a chasm develops between those Muslims surveyed and the wider population on attitudes to liberal values on issues such as gender equality, homosexuality and issues relating to freedom of expression,” the network said in a statement. “And it also reveals significant differences on attitudes to violence and terrorism.”

Trevor Phillips, the former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, analyzed the results for Channel 4 and said in a statement that they showed Britain faced a threat of “the establishment of a nation within our nation.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.html?_r=0

First, Canadian immigration and multiculturalism is very different than Britain.

Second "Channel 4 said the poll was conducted through face-to-face interviews with 1,081 adults, but only in areas where Muslims made up at least one-fifth of the population. As a result, nearly half of British Muslims were not eligible to be included in the sample, according to ICM Unlimited."  This methodology specifically excluded the population of British Muslims that lived in less concentrated Muslim areas.  Don't you think that this population's views would be more inline with British norms?

[Omni]

Just now, Argus said:

No, I simply have a different interpretation than you do on what wearing it out of pride means.

Well then maybe you would be better informed if you actually listened to the people who are wearing them say.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, carepov said:

First, Canadian immigration and multiculturalism is very different than Britain.

Second "Channel 4 said the poll was conducted through face-to-face interviews with 1,081 adults, but only in areas where Muslims made up at least one-fifth of the population. As a result, nearly half of British Muslims were not eligible to be included in the sample, according to ICM Unlimited."  This methodology specifically excluded the population of British Muslims that lived in less concentrated Muslim areas.  Don't you think that this population's views would be more inline with British norms?

I don't know. Their views on men being the boss in the family was nearly identical to that of Canadian Muslims. But in any event, my point was that THESE Muslims expressed great pride in being British. That did not stop them from rejecting liberal views. Thus the fact Canadian Muslims are proud to be Canadian does not suggest that they embrace liberal views, either. How many Canadians think homosexuality should be illegal? No one has had the balls to ask.

And the views of the former human rights commisioner - who one would hardly expect to be a rabid, intolerent right winger - were what many Canadians fear as well.

they showed Britain faced a threat of “the establishment of a nation within our nation.”

Edited May 4, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Omni said:

Well then maybe you would be better informed if you actually listened to the people who are wearing them say.

Nothing you've posted suggests you are well-informed on this issue.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Argus

[Goddess]

42 minutes ago, carepov said:

You quoted me out of context.  I was clearly referring to Muslim Canadian women.

 

Clearly, so was I.  But I also included the fact that it is not "freely" worn by most Muslims in other countries.

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Nothing you've posted suggests you are well-informed.

Or anywhere near as biased.

[Argus]

Just now, Omni said:

Or anywhere near as biased.

On the contrary, your bias is pretty blatantly obvious.