poochy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 please list those Jewish countries which are friendly towards Muslims... didja see what I did there... dida see it? real democracies? You mean 'western styled democracies'? Stay tuned... there's been a bit of an intensity-shift with forced U.S. regime change; nothing that Trump, the NextOne, won't steer back on course! The serious and honest debate laid bare, but you 'forgot' about this part "Please list those which have gay pride parades or where women have full equality with men." I suppose you couldnt even think of a ridiculous deflection away from that.
dialamah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 The serious and honest debate laid bare, but you 'forgot' about this part "Please list those which have gay pride parades or where women have full equality with men." I suppose you couldnt even think of a ridiculous deflection away from that. Why do people have to be 'exactly like us' before you'll deem them worthy of respect, compassion or humanitarian aid?
Guest Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Why do people have to be 'exactly like us' before you'll deem them worthy of respect, compassion or humanitarian aid? Again, this is just another version of the "Why do you think all Muslims are bad?" question. They don't have to be exactly like us. Not having the death penalty for homosexuality would be a good way to be somewhat similar, though.
dialamah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Again, this is just another version of the "Why do you think all Muslims are bad?" question. Nope it's not. Not you specifically, but it seems that a lot of people seem to think that unless "they" all believe like "we" do (not that we even all believe the same way), then they shouldn't be extended any help in case they sully us in some way, apparently. They don't have to be exactly like us. Not having the death penalty for homosexuality would be a good way to be somewhat similar, though. Yeah, it would be good if other governments didn't have laws that we don't agree with.
On Guard for Thee Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 "The point you're missing is that there is no "Muslim countries" as a group. They're as different from each other as they are from other states.".Taking a flight from Dubai to Kabul will educate a person quickly as to just how true that is.
Guest Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Nope it's not. Not you specifically, but it seems that a lot of people seem to think that unless "they" all believe like "we" do (not that we even all believe the same way), then they shouldn't be extended any help in case they sully us in some way, apparently. Yeah, it would be good if other governments didn't have laws that we don't agree with. We'll have to disagree. "Exactly" seems like "all" to me. I think it would be good if there were no laws at all where the basis was a religion. I think it would be great if people would restrict their religious beliefs to themselves and how they act, and not try to have any influence at all over anyone else's behaviour, ever.
dialamah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 I think it would be good if there were no laws at all where the basis was a religion. I think it would be great if people would restrict their religious beliefs to themselves and how they act, and not try to have any influence at all over anyone else's behaviour, ever. See? We agree.
cybercoma Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Oh good. Please list those Muslim countries which are friendly towards Jews. Please list those which have gay pride parades or where women have full equality with men. Please list any which are real democracies.oh yes. We're so tolerant towards the LGBTQIA+ community. Gay people have been able to marry for over a decade now in Canada. In the States it has been what? A couple years? Trans people still suffer humiliation and discrimination everywhere and are often assaulted by strangers for who they are and very few people talk about accepting intersex people. But hey, the legal system doesn't stone them. We must be doing something right. Edited January 30, 2016 by cybercoma
kimmy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 oh yes. We're so tolerant towards the LGBTQIA+ community. Gay people have been able to marry for over a decade now in Canada. In the States it has been what? A couple years? Trans people still suffer humiliation and discrimination everywhere and are often assaulted by strangers for who they are and very few people talk about accepting intersex people. But hey, the legal system doesn't stone them. We must be doing something right. I think it shows a profound lack of perspective to compare the situation for LGBT people here to those in Muslim nations. Legal marriage for gay people is a new thing here, but even before that was achieved there's really no comparison. To check the legal status of gay people around the world, consult this handy map. As you can see, many (but not all) of the imprisonment/life-imprisonment/death countries are Muslim countries, and you can also see that few Muslim countries have any legal acceptance of gay people at all-- Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Indonesia. I think there's a world of difference between disapproving stares from old-people vs legal persecution. edit to add: Politifact delved into the question of women and gay people in Muslim countries in more detail in this analysis of Ben Carson's claims. Their verdict: not as bad as Carson claims, but overall pretty bad. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Army Guy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 I will call bullshit one last time to the post " the point you are missing is that there is no "Muslim countries" as a group. They are different from each other as they are from other states..... They're are dozens of states that identify themselves as Muslim or Islamic states....it is not just a western term that balled them up into one category to make our lives easier.....that is how they want to be identified.....A while each may have it's own personality, they are closely bonded by their religion and the moral values that it brings with it....I might add it is these moral values that clash with ours, they do not mix much like oil and water.....In fact they share more of their culture than say western nations share with each other.... Not sure what taking a flight from Dubai to Kabul has to do with anything....I've taken this flight many times in the past, and found that Afghanistan's national airline to be much better than most western airlines....for the service, not so sure on the maintence aspect....but that is the industry they are in, does not mean I would want to move my family there or live there....Nor does it mean their culture is any more tolerate of others..... We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
cybercoma Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 I think it shows a profound lack of perspective to compare the situation for LGBT people here to those in Muslim nations. Legal marriage for gay people is a new thing here, but even before that was achieved there's really no comparison. To check the legal status of gay people around the world, consult this handy map. As you can see, many (but not all) of the imprisonment/life-imprisonment/death countries are Muslim countries, and you can also see that few Muslim countries have any legal acceptance of gay people at all-- Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Indonesia. I think there's a world of difference between disapproving stares from old-people vs legal persecution. edit to add: Politifact delved into the question of women and gay people in Muslim countries in more detail in this analysis of Ben Carson's claims. Their verdict: not as bad as Carson claims, but overall pretty bad. -k did you really miss the point that Argus is hardly a defender of gay rights? His selective support for the cause is nothing more than another stick for him to flog his ethnocentric bigotry about Muslims, yet again. And of course you would come to his defence given the distasteful things you've said in this thread about Muslims. I'm bringing to light the stunning hypocrisy here. The hypocrisy that Argus is going to somehow pretend to defend gay rights and women's rights despite the homophobic and misogynstic arguments he has made in the past about gay people and women in the West. Gay people certainly don't have it better in most Muslim countries, nor other theocracies (even the thinly veiled ones here). But that's not the point. The point is that Argus is pretending to give shit just so he can crap on Muslims, yet again, rather than actually caring about issues affecting women and gay people.
dialamah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 I think it shows a profound lack of perspective to compare the situation for LGBT people here to those in Muslim nations. Legal marriage for gay people is a new thing here, but even before that was achieved there's really no comparison. To check the legal status of gay people around the world, consult this handy map. As you can see, many (but not all) of the imprisonment/life-imprisonment/death countries are Muslim countries, and you can also see that few Muslim countries have any legal acceptance of gay people at all-- Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Indonesia. I think there's a world of difference between disapproving stares from old-people vs legal persecution. edit to add: Politifact delved into the question of women and gay people in Muslim countries in more detail in this analysis of Ben Carson's claims. Their verdict: not as bad as Carson claims, but overall pretty bad. -k I wonder what the results would be if practicing Christians were polled with the following questions: Should gay people be allowed to marry? Should gay people be teachers? Should gay people be ministers? Should gay people be welcome in all churches? Should homosexuality be illegal? Should the laws of the land be based on biblical principles, such as the 10 commandments, and "an eye-for-an-eye"? I bet more than 80% would answer "no" to the first 4 questions, and 50% or more would say "Yes" to the last two questions. We in the West don't survey our own religious conservatives on these questions (at least, I couldn't find any), but we're only too happy to survey others, and then judge them as 'less civilized'. What does Matthew 7.3 say? ""Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
Big Guy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 .., rather than actually caring about issues affecting women and gay people. Are you saying that some posters use the medium not to truthfully comment on issues but to argue with and agitate others - just for the pleasure of it? Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Guest Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Are you saying that some posters use the medium not to truthfully comment on issues but to argue with and agitate others - just for the pleasure of it? I don't think there would be a single poster on here who would suggest anything else.
eyeball Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?As far as women gays and the measure of a society's level of civilization go. We're often also treated to how long Muslim society has been uncivilized. Consider that here in the oh-civilized-west, within living memory, women and minorities were still being denied the right to vote and gay men were being castrated. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Guest Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 did you really miss the point that Argus is hardly a defender of gay rights? His selective support for the cause is nothing more than another stick for him to flog his ethnocentric bigotry about Muslims, yet again. And of course you would come to his defence given the distasteful things you've said in this thread about Muslims. I'm bringing to light the stunning hypocrisy here. The hypocrisy that Argus is going to somehow pretend to defend gay rights and women's rights despite the homophobic and misogynstic arguments he has made in the past about gay people and women in the West. Gay people certainly don't have it better in most Muslim countries, nor other theocracies (even the thinly veiled ones here). But that's not the point. The point is that Argus is pretending to give shit just so he can crap on Muslims, yet again, rather than actually caring about issues affecting women and gay people. I care about gay people. I have gay family members. I despise the disgusting, barbaric, treatment of gay people by religions that find homosexuality a sin. I despise those that would execute them a lot more than those that would deny them marriage rights.
kimmy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 did you really miss the point that Argus is hardly a defender of gay rights? His selective support for the cause is nothing more than another stick for him to flog his ethnocentric bigotry about Muslims, yet again. And of course you would come to his defence given the distasteful things you've said in this thread about Muslims. I'm bringing to light the stunning hypocrisy here. The hypocrisy that Argus is going to somehow pretend to defend gay rights and women's rights despite the homophobic and misogynstic arguments he has made in the past about gay people and women in the West. Gay people certainly don't have it better in most Muslim countries, nor other theocracies (even the thinly veiled ones here). But that's not the point. The point is that Argus is pretending to give shit just so he can crap on Muslims, yet again, rather than actually caring about issues affecting women and gay people. I fully realize that some conservatives really couldn't care less about gay people and are only feigning concern because they see it as an opportunity to complain about Muslims. That doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue. In Germany they're removing LGBT refugees from asylum centers to protect them from the other refugees. If refugees are beating up their own LGBT countrymen at the asylum centers, what makes you think they'd be more tolerant once they're out in the general population? -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 I wonder what the results would be if practicing Christians were polled with the following questions: Should gay people be allowed to marry? Should gay people be teachers? Should gay people be ministers? Should gay people be welcome in all churches? Should homosexuality be illegal? Should the laws of the land be based on biblical principles, such as the 10 commandments, and "an eye-for-an-eye"? I bet more than 80% would answer "no" to the first 4 questions, and 50% or more would say "Yes" to the last two questions. We in the West don't survey our own religious conservatives on these questions (at least, I couldn't find any), but we're only too happy to survey others, and then judge them as 'less civilized'. What does Matthew 7.3 say? ""Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" First off, I hope you're not under the impression that I'm a Christian. As for what their answers to all of your questions might be, I can only guess. I'm highly confident, however, that if you asked Canadian Christians questions like -should gay people be beat up? -should gay people be put in prison? -should gay people be executed? The almost universal answer would be "no". There are a few exceptions, of course. In terms of what's a speck of dust and what's a plank, I think that not supporting gay marriage or not supporting gay ministers would be a speck, and wanting prison or death for gay people would be a plank. That's my perspective. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 As far as women gays and the measure of a society's level of civilization go. We're often also treated to how long Muslim society has been uncivilized. Consider that here in the oh-civilized-west, within living memory, women and minorities were still being denied the right to vote and gay men were being castrated. I think the progress we in the oh-so-civilized West have made is illustrated by the fact that you have to go back to the 1950s or 1920s to find criticisms like this. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
dialamah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 I fully realize that some conservatives really couldn't care less about gay people and are only feigning concern because they see it as an opportunity to complain about Muslims. That doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue. In Germany they're removing LGBT refugees from asylum centers to protect them from the other refugees. If refugees are beating up their own LGBT countrymen at the asylum centers, what makes you think they'd be more tolerant once they're out in the general population? -k This is still happening in Canadian high schools, and on our streets by adults. I understand you think that 'bringing more' of 'those' people in isn't going to help, but I can't see how it'll make things worse either. Most people in any large group tend to follow the laws or rules that are in effect, and this applies to refugees as well. If we could read the minds of all Canadians, I think we'd be surprised how many think gays and LGBT people 'got what they deserved' if they were beaten. Relatively few people follow through on those thoughts, because overall people follow the laws. I've never been in a refugee center, but common sense tells me that people are going to be feeling fearful, stressed, desperate and maybe even angry. Not to excuse violent behavior, but under those kinds of conditions people of any culture/religion tend to behave more violently than they would if they felt secure. No doubt, the refugees who come to Canada will be more conservative, by and large, than Canadians overall. But they're not likely to be any more conservative than our most conservative Christians or Jews, or more extreme white supremacists. We already have all kinds of people in Canada, another 25 or 35 thousand people isn't going to radically affect our society or lead to a rise in criminal behavior or make women/gay/lgbt people overall less safe.
Argus Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Why do people have to be 'exactly like us' before you'll deem them worthy of respect, compassion or humanitarian aid? Do you respect homophobic wife beaters and anti-Semites? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) I think the progress we in the oh-so-civilized West have made is illustrated by the fact that you have to go back to the 1950s or 1920s to find criticisms like this. -k Point being, within living memory.Have you seen how far back in time bigots go to illustrate their point about how uncivilized Muslims are today and why? You see the same self-serving racist crap when they justify the west's brutality in its modern treatment of Islam. Edited January 30, 2016 by eyeball I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Argus Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Nope it's not. Not you specifically, but it seems that a lot of people seem to think that unless "they" all believe like "we" do (not that we even all believe the same way), then they shouldn't be extended any help in case they sully us in some way, apparently. Who is talking about 'extending them help' or not? What we're talking about is the advisability of importing tens and hundreds of thousands of people with a cultural value system which is violently antithetical to our own. And the best the proponents can back with is "Well not ALL of them are homophobic misogynists" or "Well, maybe the next generation will be more like us" "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Shady Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Islamophobia in Canada isn't nearly as big of a problem as Westernophobia is within refugee groups coming to Canada.
dialamah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) First off, I hope you're not under the impression that I'm a Christian. As for what their answers to all of your questions might be, I can only guess. I'm highly confident, however, that if you asked Canadian Christians questions like -should gay people be beat up? -should gay people be put in prison? -should gay people be executed? The almost universal answer would be "no". There are a few exceptions, of course. In terms of what's a speck of dust and what's a plank, I think that not supporting gay marriage or not supporting gay ministers would be a speck, and wanting prison or death for gay people would be a plank. That's my perspective. -k No, I do not think you are a Christian, but two/thirds or so of Canadians do consider themselves Christian. I would be confident only that the last question would get a resounding 'no' from even the most conservative Christian and an equally resounding Yes from the most conservative Muslim. And no doubt, if asked, most Christians would say "No" to gays/lgbt being beaten/imprisoned, but their true thoughts are likely to be much different. I have been in that very conservative, fundamental, Christian world, and while officially action against gays wasn't supported, privately there wasn't much sympathy if such sodomites got what they had coming. There is still plenty of anti-gay/lgbt sentiment in Canada, arising mainly from our Judeo-Christian heritage, and for some people that sentiment translates into action. There's no point in pretending otherwise or minimizing this in order to support your view that Muslims are 'so much worse'. I think the plank in the eye isn't so much what a person does, it is in how they let their own prejudices blind them to their own faults. Our laws protect certain groups, which, from a humanitarian viewpoint, is better than living in a country where laws do not protect those same groups. But it does not make us better, if members of our society will still discriminate/beat up/kill those protected members - until we've really re-educated everyone in Canada to actually accept people of all colors, creeds, genders and sexuality, we can hardly claim to be more civilized. Being a step or two closer to to this ideal doesn't make us better than them, especially if we try to use that assumed superiority to assume they are not deserving of our help, or that they cannot join us in our 'civilized' state. At that point, we're no better than those we criticize. Edited January 30, 2016 by dialamah
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