Islamophobia in Canada

[Guest]

I don't have a percentage, but I do know it's an overwhelming majority, especially the ones who have moved to Western countries, who are loud and clear about their position against a group like ISIS. There are many topics that we can talk about and every person is different, so I'm not about to announce, as a non-Muslim, exactly what I am speaking against here, which is; It's stupid to generalize Muslims or any other large group with a diverse background, based on the action of a select few.

For sure, but it is somewhat telling that the yardstick you apply is taking a position against ISIS. I imagine there is an enormous majority amongst Muslims that are against ISIS. Mulsims do not need to be represented by ISIS to indulge in reprehensible behaviour. Calling them on it does not mean one is lumping them in with the Allahu Quackbars.

[waldo]

Do you have the slightest clue what level of crime that represents from such a small population?

what crime(s), what "small population" figure engaged in criminality and what overall population reference are you speaking to? Put your numbers up.

[On Guard for Thee]

You're seriously calling what happened in Europe "the actions of a select few"?

Do you have the slightest clue what level of crime that represents from such a small population?

Do you have the slightest clue/cite to back up your speculation?

[kimmy]

Nitpicking and posting from the Dailymail

Yeah, I cited a couple of items from the Daily Mail, and I get that Daily Mail is something of a tabloid. Those are just examples of the kind of views I am concerned with, just as your video is an example of the kind of views you support. I don't disagree that there are Muslims willing to confront extremists. Do you disagree that the MuslimStern group called for modest dress and banning alcohol? Or that the Swedish video was real? Are you suggesting that these are hoaxes?

will not prove that this is what Muslims stand for. It's easy to find stupid comments made by people and groups.

I can post thousands of outrageous comments made by groups that represent Christians, Jews, whites, blacks, browns.

You continue to try to sell your position from a perspective that has already been discussed. The perspective that a select few idiots somehow represent all Muslims.

As I keep saying, I don't believe these guys represent all Muslims.

I do believe that they are typical of Muslims coming from conservative backwards Muslim countries, though.

And the two Imams I've cited in this thread say the same. The progressive London Imam we talked about earlier said that yeah, some people in our community have extremely negative views about western women and we need to confront that. The conservative Cologne Imam says that yeah, some people in our community have extremely negative views about western women, and western women should be careful and dress modestly for their own safety.

They disagree on the solution, but both guys agree on the problem.

And why is what they're saying so surprising and uncomfortable for people?

Guys come from cultures where women are told to be covered head-to-toe to avoid inflaming male lust, and they arrive in a country where women aren't dressed head-to-toe... and somehow people are surprised that there's a problem? Why? Why would this be surprising?

Again, have a look at this video and perhaps seek to watch the documentary to see what majority of Muslims think about the stupid people you think represent Islam.

Yes, I'm aware that many Muslims are opposed to Islamists and extremists and terrorists.

-k

[kimmy]

worry? Yes, there's sure a lot of a very special kind of flavoured worry phobia on display through much of this thread! It's hard to believe you just wrote that closing sentence I've quoted. I mean, c'mon... I highlighted and acknowledged those much thread profiled 'New Years incidents'. You know, where I provided a degree of comparative analysis on that one particular country's profiled incident by putting perspective around the criminality versus the relative number of just a single years (2015) number of registered immigrants within that country. Apparently, that perspective caused much consternation among a few of the more prolific posting phobes in this thread.

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Yes... your attempt to provide "context"... pointing out that there were over a million asylum seekers in 2015, and just a couple of thousand at the Cologne New Years Eve assault mob, so obviously migrants aren't any trouble at all! ... was quite laughable and I don't think really needs serious discussion.

and hey, I'm all for your expressed "urge to learn"! That's why I keep pointing out the lack of inward focus directly... with practical applied learning that rises above phobia... back to Canada. And I do so with pointed relative emphasis in terms of the numbers of Canadian refugees and the methodology in place and being followed to process those refugees into Canada. Are you able to apply your apparent "learnings" in that regard, particularly to point out, say... gaps, deficiencies, requirements, etc..

.

I think one thing we have learned from Europe that can be applied to Canada is to congratulate the Trudeau government on the extremely wise decision to focus on women, children, and families and steer clear of young single males. And the decision to settle on such a modest number. And to focus on actual Syrian refugees, as opposed to the economic opportunists flooding into Germany from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.

-k

[kimmy]

Seriously? In this country, our oh-so-civilized Canada, women who accuse men of sexual assault are closely examined as to conduct, dress and location at the time of the alleged assault. If alcohol is involved, it's a defense for the man, and a conviction for the woman. Women are often assumed to be lying, or to be suffering from 'regret' after a consensual sexual act. Ultimately something like 1% of sexual assault charges brought ever end up in conviction, implying that 99% of victims aren't really victims. This is so well known that many women don't even bother reporting assaults, because of the automatic censure they receive.

And you somehow think that some people from another culture saying EXACTLY what some people from this culture say 'proves' anything at all?

What a ridiculous comparison.

Trying to draw some analogy between the difficulty of prosecuting sexual assault in Canada with the Middle Eastern attitudes toward womens' responsibility for avoiding male lust is ludicrous.

I live 200 feet from a beach, and I assure you that women wear bikinis (and sometimes no tops) all summer long without sex assault mobs forming. I worked in bars and nightclubs for many years amongst women dressed in racy attire (and wearing likewise myself) and never did I see a sex assault mob break out. Contrary to what Middle Eastern imams might preach, men can control themselves in the presence of alluring women. Canadians know it, Canadian judges and jurors know it, Canadian defendants and defense attorneys know it. "But she was dressed immodestly!" is not a viable defense strategy in this country. It doesn't happen, contrary to what you'd have us believe. The difficulty in obtaining convictions for sexual assault is not because of the accusers' clothes. It's because these crimes usually don't have witnesses aside from the accused and the accuser, and they're almost always "he said, she said" cases where each side has a different view of whether it was consensual. It is extremely difficult to prove someone guilty beyond reasonable doubt in these circumstances.

-k

[dialamah]

What a ridiculous comparison.

Trying to draw some analogy between the difficulty of prosecuting sexual assault in Canada with the Middle Eastern attitudes toward womens' responsibility for avoiding male lust is ludicrous.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. You posted links to articles in which some Muslim clerics/imams sought to blame the women for being harassed, focusing on what they wear, and suggesting that alcohol was a contributing factor. In Canada, if a girl complains of being assaulted, what she wears and does is examined by social commentators, friends, acquaintances, strangers. Was she dressed provocatively, was she behaving flirtatiously, was she somewhere where 'good girls' don't go, was she drinking? If the answer to any of those questions is "yes", she is held to be at least partly responsible for what happened to her. As long as the guy is white, that is. Apparently, if it's a non-White man who assaults her it's because he's from an uncivilized religion that treats women poorly.

And yeah, we do have law in this country, and 'she was dressed provocatively isn't a defense. Nonetheless, the social attitudes that women are somehow responsible for men's behavior is still prevalent in the West is still reflected in our courts, so that very few men are convicted of sexual assault.

without sex assault mobs forming

Have you ever heard news stories of parties where some girl gets drunk (or is given some drug), passes out and several of the males take advantage of the situation? Sometimes it's men who take advantage of an unexpected situation, sometimes it's planned. What is that but a 'sex assault mob'?

Men are men all over the world. The laws we enjoy against sexual assault definitely help keep Canadian men from thinking they can take advantage, but it doesn't stop all of them. Those same laws will also apply to non-white refugees.

Edited January 24, 2016 by dialamah

[Rue]

IThere are many topics that we can talk about and every person is different, so I'm not about to announce, as a non-Muslim, exactly what I am speaking against here, which is; It's stupid to generalize Muslims or any other large group with a diverse background, based on the action of a select few.

...and the point is you do generalize about Jews based on the actions of a select few. You use words such as Zionist and Israeli to do so. So this makes you lacking in any credibility. You engage in the very thing with Jews you claim others should not with Muslims..

Also I find it interesting someone who is quick to state he is not Christian now feels the need to state you are a non Muslim. You continue to bring your own personal alleged religious identity into this issue in a back handed manner. Its not relevant. Its transparent what you are and what you stand for.

[Big Guy]

Canada already has more than a million Muslims. Within ten years it will have two million.

So what do you suggest that we do about it?

[Guest]

So what do you suggest that we do about it?

I would say, nothing at all, except never be afraid to say, "Hey, you, I don't care what your bleedin' religion is, stop it!"

[Rue]

Dialamah you stated: "Men are men all over the world." If you refer to our penises and testacles yes. Other then that, of course not. Genetic predisposition, religion, culture, ethnic and family values, socio-economic conditions, war, all make the behaviour of men vary.

Muslim societies promote ignorant and backword relations and concepts as to women-that is a fact and its mainstream not a minority of Muslims. With due respect you are dead wrong inferring we do not criticize Christian and Jewish religious practices and beliefs the same way we do Muslim ones if it is to teach women are inferior. You are dead wrong suggesting we accept fundamentalist religions treating women like inferiors and only pick on Muslims who do it.

Our society in Canada rejected what Muslim mainstream society still believes about women and so did societies in Europe. Certain Muslims seek to reintroduce values we in Judeo Christian society have rejected and evolved past. That is fact, not fiction. If a woman believes she has to cover up because she feels she is provocative, this does not empower her, it teaches her she is to blame for the sexual desires of men and our societies have moved past that. We don't need women covered like potato sacks because hey have breasts. We men can handle it and its not up to women to cover themselves up its up to us men to keep control of our urges and stop making it their responsibility which is what Islam does and for that matter certain men in our society who are not Muslim and we call rapists and put in jail.

This practice of covering women up, segregating them from men, treating them as inferiors, it is an essential feature of belief in Islam and yes it does fuel rape and sexual abuse and abuse of women and to pretend it does not insults Muslim women trying to challenge Islam for treating them as inferior.

If you think the mentality of Muslim men coming from certain Muslim countries is tolerant towards women and no different than in Western society you are dead wrong and its not racist to say so.

It is wrong to accuse all refugees of being rapist or not in control of their sex urges yes. It is ridiculously naïve thinking Muslim men coming to Canada and Europe are bringing progressive attitudes towards women with them. They are not and conflict is now arising because Muslim men coming believe our women are sluts for not covering up and so deserve their being raped. Spare me the ridiculous liberal bleeding hearts so concerned about political propriety they can't admit barbaric Islamic practices.

Kathleen Wynne who weeks ago was posing for photo ops with Armenian Christian refugees from Syria Stephen Harper and private refugee sponsors arranged and she and Justin Trudeau used as props twice now has clashed with the very culture she welcomes in; once in public schools in regards to sex education and now with a community college setting up an affiliation with a Muslim college overseas in Saudi Arabia that discriminates against woman. On that one she told the college to think twice before affiliating with a discriminatory Saudi college.

These differences in how we approach and conceive of women in our society is different in Canada and Europe than it is in Muslim countries.

I am sorry but if you care to provide the names of moderate Muslim sects that teach women are equal to men please let me know. Ismailis and Amidyha yes, after that? I have been a guest in many mosques and lived in Muslim society. Please don't have me believe moderate believes towards women or sexual concepts is the same as in the West..

Iran treats its women as inferiors. ISIL openly enslaves Yazidis as sex slaves while preaching to its men not to covet sex in women.

I know how Hamas. Hezbollah, PLFP, treat their women. I know how Fatah treats them use the Koran to justify it.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Rue

[Smallc]

Genetic predisposition

What a racist notion that is.

[dialamah]

Dialamah you stated: "Men are men all over the world." If you refer to our penises and testacles yes. Other then that, of course not. Genetic predisposition, religion, culture, ethnic and family values, socio-economic conditions, war, all make the behaviour of men vary.

Men are the main perpetrators of sexual violence against women and each other, all over the world. In every country/culture/group, there are wide differences in individuals, from men who would never step over any line when it comes to sexual contact to men who'll keep women prisoner for years, rape and murderthem . In between those extremes are men who make suggestive/lewd comments, playfully slap a woman's ass as she walks by, rub up or touch her in a crowd, stand beneath a staircase to watch them walk up, install mirrors/cameras in bathrooms/change rooms/hotel rooms, expose themselves to strangers, push for sex on a date, shrug it off, sulk, threaten or become violent when turned down; use GHB to obtain consent, or take advantage of a girl who's passed out. Some research suggests that 30% of men in the "civilized" west are willing to coerce sex to some degree, especially if they think they wouldn't get caught.

Are men from more patriarchal societies more sexually violent than men from less patriarchal society? Other than the recent prevalence of lurid headlines, I haven't really seen any proof of that. The way in which men indulge in sexual violence may differ slightly between "here" and "there", but unless there is some hard data demonstrating a significant difference, I take those headlines to be simply headlines that prove nothing about any man in any particular group. It's pretty hard to condemn "Islam" as a whole because some Middle-Eastern/North African men made headlines in Germany, and shrug off our Western boys who find GHB so handy while out on the town, women are warned to never leave their drinks unattended for fear someone will add something.

Yeah, men's behavior varies, and many things can determine just how any individual man learns to relate to women. Nonetheless, as a group, men are dangerous to women regardless of color or creed. There's just no avoiding that conclusion.

Edited January 24, 2016 by dialamah

[Guest]

Yeah, men's behavior varies, and many things can determine just how any individual man learns to relate to women. Nonetheless, as a group, men are dangerous to women regardless of color or creed. There's just no avoiding that conclusion.

One can avoid that conclusion somewhat if one sticks to the creed bit. However, if one allows that some creeds are worse than others, it's difficult to disagree with it.

And I would probably go with no creed at all as the preferable state.

Edited January 25, 2016 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

One can avoid that conclusion somewhat if one sticks to the creed bit. However, if one allows that some creeds are worse than others, it's difficult to disagree with it.

And I would probably go with no creed at all as the preferable state.

Sure, I can agree with that. For example, the Bible is pretty patriarchal, and the more fundamental Chrisrian sects may well encourage male entitlement to sex from wives and to disrespect women who do not share their definition of female behavior and modesty. In Islam, men who are raised with the Quranic instructions to respect and honor women and to show tolerance for those of different beliefs and behavior will behave differently than men raised to believe that women are less than men. I do not think either Islam or Christianity supports rape.

In terms of a patriarchal society, it's true that women will also support that. So its more complex than having a bunch of misogynistic men out raping and pillaging just cause they're Muslim.

[Guest]

Yes, it certainly behooves a woman to pick her religion wisely.

Of course, if she doesn't like it, she can always leave it.

Sometimes.

[dialamah]

Yes, it certainly behooves a woman to pick her religion wisely.

Of course, if she doesn't like it, she can always leave it.

Sometimes.

Rather a simplistic response, and I'm disappointed in you. People who are raised with certain belief systems, religious or otherwise don't really "choose" it, and they rarely find it easy to "leave" for any reason. I think it was some Catholic cleric who said "Give me a boy till he is five years old, and he is mine for life."

As for your sly reference to laws against apostasy, none of those are based on Quranic writing. Those are secular laws, so blame the governments and clerics who impose and uphold them, not the religion, and recognize that not every single Muslim is going to believe or follow that particular law.

Edited January 25, 2016 by dialamah

[Guest]

Rather a simplistic response, and I'm disappointed in you. People who are raised with certain belief systems, religious or otherwise don't really "choose" it, and they rarely find it easy to "leave" for any reason. I think it was some Catholic cleric who said "Give me a boy till he is five years old, and he is mine for life."

As for your sly reference to laws against apostasy, none of those are based on Quranic writing. Those are secular laws, so blame the governments and clerics who impose and uphold them, not the religion, and recognize that not every single Muslim is going to believe or follow that particular law.

The Catholic cleric was wrong, and I am living proof of that. Emphasis on the living. As for the laws on apostasy, I blame the people who uphold them. Just the people.

As to your complaint about simplicity. Sometimes it just isn't that complicated.

Edit> Is there any reason you would suppose that I would think every single Muslim is going to believe or follow anything at all?

Edited January 25, 2016 by bcsapper

[Rue]

Dia thank you for the well thought out response. We respectfully disagree on only one thing-whether mainstream Islam as it is being taught and followed today is a pathogen for violent behavior against women. I think it does, you do not. We do not disagree that neither of us assumes anyone is a rapist simply because they are Muslim. I do think though Islam has a long way to go in its evolutionary process before it can define and accept women as equals. Let's leave it at that.

[waldo]

Yes... your attempt to provide "context"... pointing out that there were over a million asylum seekers in 2015, and just a couple of thousand at the Cologne New Years Eve assault mob, so obviously migrants aren't any trouble at all! ... was quite laughable and I don't think really needs serious discussion.

what's quite laughable is your continued attempt to portray all, as you say, 'asylum seekers' as... criminals... engaged in that New Years assault... and "handful" of reported rapes. When I highlight those stats (that you took such exception to) and I directly speak to them in regards to their criminal nature, is that you interpreting me as saying there was no trouble at all? Or is that you saying you're ticked that putting perspective on the degree of that criminality really messes with your want to portray all, as you say, 'asylum seekers' as... criminals?

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I think one thing we have learned from Europe that can be applied to Canada is to congratulate the Trudeau government on the extremely wise decision to focus on women, children, and families and steer clear of young single males. And the decision to settle on such a modest number. And to focus on actual Syrian refugees, as opposed to the economic opportunists flooding into Germany from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.

so you're good then, allrightee! But uhhh... you mean, as you say, "settle on actual refugees"... when screening for actual refugees? That's settling? "Modest number"? Were you ever under an impression that more than 25K... even 50K numbers were ever in consideration? So you understand the limitation to exclude single males... oh wait, you extended on that to state "young" single males... do you understand that was done to avail your concerns over the potential for "assault and rape"? Cause I understood that action was taken to extend further on the UN’s own long-term refugee documentation measures and the heightened phobia raised within the Canadian public throughout the election campaign by Harper Conservatives... and in the interests of attempting to (further) balance security with swift humanitarian action, single males were excluded.

bu hey, good on ya for finally steering this thread back to Canada!

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[Argus]

The difficulty in obtaining convictions for sexual assault is not because of the accusers' clothes. It's because these crimes usually don't have witnesses aside from the accused and the accuser, and they're almost always "he said, she said" cases where each side has a different view of whether it was consensual. It is extremely difficult to prove someone guilty beyond reasonable doubt in these circumstances.

How much more difficult would it be in a society where a woman's word is worth 1/4 that of a man, and where a rape conviction requires either a confession or the testimony of four male witnesses? And if the man they accuse is married they're confessing to adultery. A teenage girl who accused her a man of raping her was executed in Iran for adultery.

[waldo]

How much more difficult would it be in a society where a woman's word is worth 1/4 that of a man, and where a rape conviction requires either a confession or the testimony of four male witnesses? And if the man they accuse is married they're confessing to adultery. A teenage girl who accused her a man of raping her was executed in Iran for adultery.

and in Canada?

[Argus]

In Canada, if a girl complains of being assaulted, what she wears and does is examined by social commentators, friends, acquaintances, strangers. Was she dressed provocatively, was she behaving flirtatiously, was she somewhere where 'good girls' don't go, was she drinking?

Unless you have a cite I'm going to assume this type of thing only occurs among certain communities of religious idiots.

And yeah, we do have law in this country, and 'she was dressed provocatively isn't a defense. Nonetheless, the social attitudes that women are somehow responsible for men's behavior is still prevalent in the West is still reflected in our courts, so that very few men are convicted of sexual assault.

That is utter drivel with no basis in fact.

Men are men all over the world. The laws we enjoy against sexual assault definitely help keep Canadian men from thinking they can take advantage, but it doesn't stop all of them. Those same laws will also apply to non-white refugees.

What you are deliberately choosing to ignore is that those laws you speak of are a reflection of the will of our democratic societies and the cultures which prevail within them. Meanwhile, in Muslim lands, the brutally violent misogyny which prevails within those cultures sees the rape and abuse of women as being unworthy of any particular judicial adjustments, no police special training or special squads, no particular interest by authorities or media. Anyone trying to favorably compare the social and legal aspects of sexual abuse and harassment of women in the Muslim world with Western countries is either being deliberately disingenuous or is simply utterly misinformed. So whether your argument amounts to lies or ignorance it still makes for a laughably inept rebuttal.

[Argus]

So what do you suggest that we do about it?

Stop bringing in more.

[Argus]

What a racist notion that is.

What notion?