Islamophobia in Canada

On Guard for Thee · January 12, 2016

Again...my question was: Does the Quran need to be read in Arabic to be understood?

Do we need to dwell on this? If you aren't sure, please just say so.

You don't seem to get it so yes let's not dwell on it.

One quick hint though would be to ask yourself what language was it originally written in.

dialamah · January 12, 2016

Again...my question was: Does the Quran need to be read in Arabic to be understood?

Do we need to dwell on this? If you aren't sure, please just say so.

Not sure why it has to be explained, but translating any document from the original language into another language can lead to mistakes. The Bible is full of them, and among certain circles lead to long debates on what the writers "really" meant. Language is full of nuance, which native speakers (usually) understand without thinking about it. Thus, reading a document in its original language is going to lead to a better understanding of what the writer intended. A particularly astute scholar who spent years studying a document such as a translated Bible or Quran may have a better understanding than a casual reader of the books in the native language. A scholar who has spent years studying a document in it's native language is going to have a better understanding than either of those. Nonetheless, not even native language scholars who've spent years studying these books agree on what they actually teach especially when it comes to details such as, for instance, abrogation in the Quran or just how long Yahweh really spent creating the earth.

Let me ask you something - do you really think a Western English speaker can have the same understanding of the Quran as an Arabic scholar?

Edited January 12, 2016 by dialamah

Rue · January 12, 2016

I wish to clarify in regards to post 2595 that it does not cut and paste the article of Daniel Pipes, just a portion of one of the defenses he gave to it when asked how he arrived at his conclusions.

Rue · January 12, 2016

You don't seem to get it so yes let's not dwell on it.

One quick hint though would be to ask yourself what language was it originally written in.

You assertion is illogical. You claim the Koran can only be understood if one speaks and reads Arabic and that any translation into any other language will change its meaning. This means using your argument one can not translate Arabic.

That's interesting because Arabic has many dialects. The Koran is not written in just one Arabic dialect.

To make your point even more ridiculous, Iranians read the Koran in Farsi, Pakistanis in Urdu, Bosnians in Bosnian, Albanians in Albanian and so on. Go on tell them all they don't understand the Koran. Go tell the 20 million or so Muslims of China since they don't read Arabic they can't understand the Koran.

Your point is ridiculous. The fact that holy books are translated from language to language does not automatically mean they are wrong or can not be relied on.

What makes it even more absurd is your lack of understanding of the origins of Islam.

The concepts started with Muhammed talking in his sleep. His wife was then said to have written what he said in his sleep on leaves which were then rewritten many thousands of times before they ended up in the Koran they are today.

The Arabic of 3,000 years ago is not the same as the Arabic of today anymore than Hebrew or Greek is.

Your point is past absurd.

People disagree over the meaning of things period. Using your argument when it comes to the Koran its only because there is one meaning non Arab readers don't get. Bull crap. Arabs who speak the exact same dialect of Arabic are killing each other over its meaning.

Now you also need to get real. Much of Islam comes from Ishmael and his followers who did not speak the Arabic of the Koran.

As for Muhammed, he smoked hash hish and opium all the time. His talking in his sleep was no doubt a result of being stoned out of his mind. Much of what he would have mumbled and his wife heard was necessarily disjointed babblings. Someone else would have probably had to re-write them into a more cohesive format and that alone would have changed their original meaning.

There are no original writings in the Bible either. Everything is the result of heresay evidence many times removed from the unknown original actual events, texts, etc.

The point is extremist Muslims interpret the Koran in a way that can be understood in English. Don;t be ridiculous to say it can't.

When some idiot quotes the Koran to justify terrorism or why non Muslims are infidel and khafir there is no misunderstanding.

Don't even begin to suggest a Muslim who rapes is misunderstood as to why he rapes because the person he raped doesn't speak Arabic because that is the absurd conclusion to your argument.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Rue

Rue · January 12, 2016

Let me ask you something - do you really think a Western English speaker can have the same understanding of the Quran as an Arabic scholar?

I think you meant Arabic speaking scholar. I would agree someone who can speak and read Arabic has an advantage reading the Koran but no I do not think you need to read Arabic or even be a Muslim to be able to talk about certain concepts of it.

I know many Christians who don't speak Armaic or Hebrew from classical days and have a pretty good handle on their own testaments and the old ones.

I know people with no formal training of any kind who would blow you away how insightful they are when reading things. An open mind and an academic mind are not necessarily the same thing.

I know your point though. Most of the religious scholars read and write classic Hebrew, Greek, Arabic. I know your point. You mean it with all religions, and to be able to read as close to the original language as possible. I get that and your point but I think On Guard went absurd with his point.

Now back to the original topic. I concede to you the method of how any statistics are gathered and used can be problemati. No I do not think they are infallible. In fact the article I provided back in another response which I criticized for blaming the issues in Europe on Zionists did raise a rebuttal to some of the stats that should be considered.

Stats can be used to kill people, to justify hating them, etc. That is not what I would want them used for but I would hope they help identify the problem areas that need addressing.

I don;t have time to get into it more than to say Muslims rape Muslims not just Euros in Europe and they are not a race but visibly considered one by Euros due to secondary physical characteristics and clothing attire.

How we use the stats is the question. If it can deport the violent ones so only the good ones are left that to me is not bad. If on the other hand its used to do what Germany did with its Jews in WW2 to Muslims today in Euro you bet I am worried.

Issues as to sexuality, violence, welfare, these are polarizing issues. I come from the school of thought if you keep them in the open andand talked about, it generates positive solutions but if you don't deal with it head on and talk difficult issues out, it festers and piles up and allows other extremists in the name of hating rapists to go on a rampage as well.

Any way you look, innocent people are going to be hurt.

drummindiver · January 12, 2016

Please cite any evidence that it is specifically *progressives* who limit such data. This article clearly points out that the Conservatives were just as uninterested in looking too closely at that data as any other government.

And personally, as 'progressive', I'd be happy to have that information. If certain groups are more inclined to violent crime than others, lets have actual proof instead of guesses and assumptions based on incomplete information and fear-mongering.

The States does keep statistics, though. And here is what they have regarding rape:

Total Caucasion Black Native/Alaskan native Asian/Pacific Islander

Forcible rape, by numbers: 13,886 9,027 4,512 183 164

Forcible rape, by percentage 100.0 65.0 32.5 1.3 1.2

Please note that the US has about two and a half million Muslims; lets assume that only 1/4 of those are of 'raping age and gender' - that's a total of 625,000 potential perpetrators. Still, they are barely a BLIP on the FBIs list of crime by race stats, lumped in a category that basically means "other".

As a matter of fact, it is indeed the white guys who carry out the most rapes - 70% in fact. Exactly as I said: if a woman is going to be raped in a Western country, it's most likely going to be a white guy. And, guess what - if a woman in the ME is going to be raped, it's probably going to be by a Muslim. Probably even you can figure out why that would be.

I can also bring out news stories in which women are clearly raped by white guys, singly and in groups, so I'm not even going to bother.

Sorry, what is your point with these statistic? Muslims come in all ethnicities.

Also, whites make up over 70% of the population while Blacks make up 13.2. By your statistics blacks are raping at almost triple the rate as what should be expected.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

You don't seem to get it so yes let's not dwell on it.

One quick hint though would be to ask yourself what language was it originally written in.

What language would that be...forsooth?

Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,

The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,

And bathed every veyne in swich licóur

Of which vertú engendred is the flour;

Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth

Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,

And smale foweles maken melodye,

That slepen al the nyght with open ye,

So priketh hem Natúre in hir corages,

Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,

And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,

To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;

And specially, from every shires ende

Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende...

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

Well said (written), Mr Rue.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

Let me ask you something - do you really think a Western English speaker can have the same understanding of the Quran as an Arabic scholar?

Yes. For example: this says what?

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God. Right? Or do you have issue with the translation?

GostHacked · January 13, 2016

You assertion is illogical. You claim the Koran can only be understood if one speaks and reads Arabic and that any translation into any other language will change its meaning.

The way I see it is that yes. Knowing Arabic would help make one understand the Koran. Look at it in a language sense. Some words have no english translation. All languages share a common set of words, but there are some unique to specific languages, heck, specific dialects.

Sue you can get much from an english translation, but there are things you will miss.

I would suspect you would agree that knowing Hebrew would be optimum to understand jewish religious texts.

dialamah · January 13, 2016

Yes. For example: this says what?

There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God. Right? Or do you have issue with the translation?

I do not speak Arabic, so how would I know? I do know that I've spoken with people who know other languages, who try to explain something to me that they understand quite well in the original language, but have trouble finding the English words to adequately express the concept. Have you never had that experience? For a while I dated an interpreter who knew something like 9 or 11 different languages, six or seven of them he was considered extremely fluent in, enough so that he worked at the UN as a real-time translator for the various meetings/summits they have between countries. Even he said that sometimes between languages, it's can be really hard to get the precise word. Ideally, you need to live in the culture where the language is spoken for a significant length of time to really understand nuance.

As Rue said, one is never going to know exactly what was meant by the original writer, and the further away you get, the more different it'll be. Like the game of post-office, where a circle of people whisper a phrase into their neighbor's ear, what starts at the beginning can be very different from what comes out at the end.

Edited January 13, 2016 by dialamah

Argus · January 13, 2016

I find it interesting that you seem to think you can interpret the Koran

I speak the good English.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

As Rue said, one is never going to know exactly what was meant by the original writer...etc, etc.

So...nobody understands the Quran?

dialamah · January 13, 2016

So...nobody understands the Quran?

Wow, reading comprehension just isn't your strong point is it?

No, that's not what I, or anyone, has said. What has been said is that translations are not going to be as accurate as what is in the original language. Hope that clears it up for you.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

Wow, reading comprehension just isn't your strong point is it?

No, that's not what I, or anyone, has said. What has been said is that translations are not going to be as accurate as what is in the original language. Hope that clears it up for you.

Not really. Either folks can understand the Quran only in Arabic or not. Your argument is based on my not understanding the Quran properly via the English language. Am I not capable of understanding the Quran? Must I read it in modern Arabic to get its message?

Argus · January 13, 2016

You don't seem to get it so yes let's not dwell on it.

One quick hint though would be to ask yourself what language was it originally written in.

What language was the bible originally written in?

Your objection is inane. All holy books have been written and re-written and re-interpreted over time and into numerous languages.

Of all the desperate ways progressives try to excuse the brutal violence, misogyny, bigotry and homophobia of the Koran, this has got to be the most idiotic.

None of the English translations count, because only Arabic matters.

Doh!

Edited January 13, 2016 by Argus

Argus · January 13, 2016

Wow, reading comprehension just isn't your strong point is it?

No, that's not what I, or anyone, has said. What has been said is that translations are not going to be as accurate as what is in the original language. Hope that clears it up for you.

So then the Koran might actually say "Rape any stinking infidel girl you find, especially the really young ones, because that is your right as a Muslim man."

And you really can't counter that because hey, you don't read Arabic.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

Sorry, what is your point with these statistic? Muslims come in all ethnicities.

A point that needs to be pointed out often. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all come from the same desert. Anybody can join...well the Jews have some tough entrance requirements.

On Guard for Thee · January 13, 2016

So...nobody understands the Quran?

Now you're catching on.

Hal 9000 · January 13, 2016

Of all the desperate ways progressives try to excuse the brutal violence, misogyny, bigotry and homophobia of the Koran, this has got to be the most idiotic.

...So far!

On Guard for Thee · January 13, 2016

What language was the bible originally written in?

Your objection is inane. All holy books have been written and re-written and re-interpreted over time and into numerous languages.

Of all the desperate ways progressives try to excuse the brutal violence, misogyny, bigotry and homophobia of the Koran, this has got to be the most idiotic.

None of the English translations count, because only Arabic matters.

Doh!

As I say, take it up with dog on porch, you both seem to be equally confused.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

Now you're catching on.

Which is obviously untrue as there are 1.6+ billion Muslims. Not all of them Arab or speaking Arabic. But, I'll accept your statement as your Appomattox...suh.

On Guard for Thee · January 13, 2016

Which is obviously untrue as there are 1.6+ billion Muslims. Not all of them Arab or speaking Arabic. But, I'll accept your statement as your Appomattox...suh.

Point being that there are differing interpretations of the Koran, just as there are of the bible, even among people who are native Arabic speakers. Do a little research and you'll find out what \i'm talking about.

DogOnPorch · January 13, 2016

Point being that there are differing interpretations of the Koran, just as there are of the bible, even among people who are native Arabic speakers. Do a little research and you'll find out what \i'm talking about.

What interpretations are you referring to? Since you've already done the research...