Islamophobia in Canada

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I guess what we need here is a defining of terms.  What exactly is meant by speaking for?

If it means telling them what to do then nobody should do that for anyone.  If it means speaking up when they are in distress and can't do so for themselves then why wouldn't one?

And who is not directly impacted by what happens to their wives and daughters?

Husbands, sons and brothers, too, if it comes to that.

The problem is not SPEAKING for women.  The problem is speaking for WOMEN.

 

I guess the devil is in the details, and I have lost the thread of the original issue.  Feel free to speak up, but certain issues don't need your input.

My newsfeed includes the views of middle-aged white Canadians on American campus politics these days.... why do they care ?  

[Guest]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

I guess the devil is in the details, and I have lost the thread of the original issue.  Feel free to speak up, but certain issues don't need your input.

My newsfeed includes the views of middle-aged white Canadians on American campus politics these days.... why do they care ?  

Probably because they are irritated. 

I realise certain issues don't need my input, but this being an internet forum, why would I be here without one?

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

1. Probably because they are irritated. 

2. I realise certain issues don't need my input, but this being an internet forum, why would I be here without one?

1.  My advice is to let it go.  

2. Yes, express yourself fully and in detail.  I have opinions to spare, myself.  I don't expect my opinion on how the all-women spa in Toronto treats transgender women will be of interest to anyone though.  But nobody should tell me to shut up about it on here...

[Guest]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1.  My advice is to let it go.  

2. Yes, express yourself fully and in detail.  I have opinions to spare, myself.  I don't expect my opinion on how the all-women spa in Toronto treats transgender women will be of interest to anyone though.  But nobody should tell me to shut up about it on here...

That's where the internet creates the difference.  No-one need stew about anything anymore...

[jacee]

22 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

To my mind, in the moral sphere there are 3 general circles of involvement:

1. Those directly accountable and impacted by the issue in question.

2. Groups who are impacted by the issue in question.

3. Those groups indirectly, not directly, or arguably not impacted.

With regards to women's issues men have a right and sometimes a duty to express their views in the third, or outer, circle.  As implied, their voices aren't as fundamental to the questions being posed.  To me, the noise comes when an issue comes up and it's brought to the fore by 3rd circle groups.  All of us have a duty to facilitate responsible dialogue.

This is about some white men telling Muslim women they can't wear a head or face covering.

It's not their business at all what any women wear.

[jacee]

21 hours ago, Goddess said:

Do you even read what you write?

A koran is just a book, too.  It might be "holy" to you, but to lots of us...it's just another book.

Terrorizing people because of their flag is not another matter, as you suggest.  But you seem to have no problem with terrorists or terrorizing, as long as it terrorizes the people you want it to, such as those who insult Islam.

Stop whining. Nobody's terrorizing you. 

However, Muslim people in Canada are being terrorized and murdered because of their religion.

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, jacee said:

Stop whining. Nobody's terrorizing you. 

However, Muslim people in Canada are being terrorized and murdered because of their religion.

I really wish you knew how to read. 

[jacee]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I have only women in my family.  Count me in for 1 and 2 as well.

How does it impact you if Muslim women choose to wear a burka or hijab? 

It's really not your business.

[jacee]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I have only women in my family.  Count me in for 1 and 2 as well.

You tell them what to wear, think, do, say, be?

I'm curious what they'd say about that. Lol

[jacee]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I really wish you knew how to read. 

Have you read the thread?

[Michael Hardner]

12 minutes ago, jacee said:

This is about some white men telling Muslim women they can't wear a head or face covering.

It's not their business at all what any women wear.

So circle 1 is the specific individuals, if there are any in this example.  If it's a general discussion then we're only talking about groups.

Circle 2 is Muslim women... then Circle 3 is Muslim men and white men.  Speak up, ladies, Imams, white men... you will be heard to some level.

[blackbird]

28 minutes ago, jacee said:

 

However, Muslim people in Canada are being terrorized and murdered because of their religion.

I get the impression from the way you worded that sentence that you think it is a common occurrence, which is far from the truth.  The attack in Quebec City was not a common occurrence, thankfully.  It happened, but it is false to make the statement that it is a common occurrence.

That is a very rare occurrence.  A terrorist attack against a Muslim by a non-Muslim is very rare in the world.  The fact is thousands of people are being killed every week or month around the world by jihadists, many of whom are suicide bombers.  Many of their victims are Muslims but christians and others are also being killed.  Check the website religionofpeace dot com for the statistics. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by blackbird

[jacee]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I get the impression from the way you worded that sentence that you think it is a common occurrence, which is far from the truth.  The attack in Quebec City was not a common occurrence, thankfully.  It happened, but it is false to make the statement that it is a common occurrence.

That is a very rare occurrence.  A terrorist attack against a Muslim by a non-Muslim is very rare in the world.  The fact is thousands of people are being killed every week or month around the world by jihadists, many of whom are suicide bombers.  Many of their victims are Muslims but christians and others are also being killed.  Check the website religionofpeace dot com for the statistics. 

http://globalnews.ca/news/2634032/hate-crimes-against-muslim-canadians-more-than-doubled-in-3-years/

In 2015, police across the country recorded 159 hate crimes targeted at Muslims, up from 45 in 2012, representing an increase of 253 per cent.

And that was before 6 people were murdered, and

Enormous’ spike in hate crime reports in Montreal since mosque attack

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/montreal-man-accused-of-uttering-threats-and-inciting-hatred/wcm/a894db62-1ad0-43f7-9231-79d4ca97d2cc

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That is a very rare occurrence.  A terrorist attack against a Muslim by a non-Muslim is very rare in the world.  The fact is thousands of people are being killed every week or month around the world by jihadists, many of whom are suicide bombers.  Many of their victims are Muslims but christians and others are also being killed.  Check the website religionofpeace dot com for the statistics. 

Since the topic is 'in Canada' it seems that we have a similar risk level for Muslims, arguably it is greater for them.

[Hydraboss]

And the definition of "reported hate crimes" can be anything anyone wants it to be even when it's not.  Putting up a sign that says "I hate muslims" would fall into the numbers reported in your link, but meets absolutely none of the definitions of "hate crime".

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Hydraboss said:

And the definition of "reported hate crimes" can be anything anyone wants it to be even when it's not.   

Numbers don't always tell the tale but as long as we're talking... how about actual murders.  The score currently sits at 6-2, which is pretty grim.  

[Hydraboss]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The score currently sits at 6-2

Maybe that's the score.  Are you sure?

Consider this:  A white guys kills 6 muslims in a mosque.  Score:  6-0

Now a Somalian gang kills a white guy at a mall.  If the gang members are all muslim, is this still a hate crime or does it just get recorded as a murder?  Does anyone report whether the killing was because the white guy wasn't muslim?  Not a chance because.....Canada.

Score:  Still 6-0

 

"Lies, damn lies, and statistics"

[Rue]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  My advice is to let it go.  

2. Yes, express yourself fully and in detail.  I have opinions to spare, myself.  I don't expect my opinion on how the all-women spa in Toronto treats transgender women will be of interest to anyone though.  But nobody should tell me to shut up about it on here...

Shut up.

Sorry I have issues. Someone says don't, I do. I am working on it with my therapist. SHE says its probably testosterone that causes that.

In any event I support women who say a man in transition to a woman and still has his penis should not bring it to an open spa with other women who have only vaginas.

Its a penis. Until it is removed, it bobbles in the water and could poke someone or go off. Those things can go off at a moment's notice. One does not know if they are loaded.

Now I don't mean to penalize a man in transition but technically they are still penalized and until they remove their penalization they have to be realistic.

Then again I pee in women's washrooms if I know there is only one toilet and not many in them if there is a line up. It has nothing to do with my penis but everything to do with my prostate. I share that because I believe my prostate entitled me to be disabled as a category which trumps gender rights to access toilets in an emergency.

I think I would win that in the Supreme Court given its inherent component of urgency which the aged members would understand and by aged members including bladders of both genders.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Hydraboss said:

Consider this:  A white guys kills 6 muslims in a mosque.  Score:  6-0

If we're talking about terrorism then the score is 6-2.  We can change the discussion to talk about crime in general.  Are we moving on then ?

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, Rue said:

1. I am working on it with my therapist. SHE says its probably testosterone that causes that.

2. In any event I support women who say a man in transition to a woman and still has his penis should not bring it to an open spa with other women who have only vaginas.

3. Then again I pee in women's washrooms if I know there is only one toilet and not many in them if there is a line up. It has nothing to do with my penis but everything to do with my prostate. I share that because I believe my prostate entitled me to be disabled as a category which trumps gender rights to access toilets in an emergency.

1.  There's a certain kind of 'therapist' that reduces your testosterone count, for a few minutes anyway.

2.  I disagree in general, But that's another thread.

3.  I'm sure you can get away with it, even in North Carolina.

 

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Since the topic is 'in Canada' it seems that we have a similar risk level for Muslims, arguably it is greater for them.

Take a look a this for a second....

http://www.the10and3.com/which-canadians-are-most-likely-to-be-the-victims-of-hate-crimes/

"But what about particular religious minorities? Muslim Canadians, for instance, suffered 15.1 incidents per 100K people in this time period. This jump indeed seems rather worrisome, particularly in the context of the niqab debate and the recent spate of incidents, until you consider that Jewish Canadians were the victims of 185.4 incidents per 100K people. That’s more than 12x higher, and makes Jewish Canadians far and away the most targeted minority religious group in Canada per capita. When restricting only to violent offenses, the ratio is still high, but narrows somewhat to a factor 6x higher.

B’nai Brith Canada, which tracks antisemitic incidents in the country, sees no letdown in the pace of such crimes, noting in a statement that “2014 was the worst year that we’ve recorded since we began [tracking] in 1982, with a 28% increase over the numbers from 2013.” While Europe has increasingly become a hotspot for virulent antisemitism, the data suggests that Canada is clearly not immune. “This means that the Jewish community is not only disproportionately targeted, but also that antisemitism is a growing problem in Canada.” "

and

"How about racial and ethnic minorities? Black Canadians suffered 86.5 incidents of hate crime per 100K residents over this time period, at least threefold more than all other racial and ethnic groups that StatsCan tracks, including Arabs/West Asians (27.6 per 100K), South Asians (10.6 per 100K), and Aboriginals (6.6 per 100K). And while the United States continues a painful and fraught debate over race relations and hate crime, in Canada this discussion appears altogether muted, particularly with respect to black Canadians. In light of these numbers, perhaps this needs to change."

Why has the issue of discrimination been hijacked by a Muslim MP and Trudeau to single out Muslims as victims of discrimination? Why?

I say it was a crass political decision to pander to Muslim votes.

Hate is hate. Focusing on just one targeted group is a crock of putrid pandering puerility.

How would Muslims feel if a Jewish MP stood up and demanded anti Semitism be singled out for condemnation? Hmmm? What do you think Marcus or Eye or Ghost Hacked or Hudson Jones, Jacee would say to that? When has anyone spitting and sputtering about Islamophobia on this forum shared the same sentiment for blacks, Jews, gays, women, chose your "victim".

They don't.

Islamophobia became a crass pandering exercise by Trudeau and it was and remains inexcusable to talk about hatred posing one group's pain as priorized over other group's pain.

Its a crock of politically appropriate crap.

I also must agree with Hydra. The manner in which hate acts and crimes are reported is very subjective. The method in what is reported and how the incident is reported is inconsistent. B'Nai B'rith tends to keep the most up-to-date stats but it will tell you what Hydra has u p front-its criteria is NOT the criteria for convicted hate crimes only reported incidents of hateful expression.

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Rue

[Hydraboss]

I was giving an example of murders related to "islamophobia" as per the thread topic based on your supplied numbers.  Are we narrowing the field to "islamophobic terrorism vs islamic terrorism"?  Your choice - we can go wherever you want with this.

I still think my last post demonstrates why the numbers may or may not be accurate.

[Rue]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  There's a certain kind of 'therapist' that reduces your testosterone count, for a few minutes anyway.

2.  I disagree in general, But that's another thread.

3.  I'm sure you can get away with it, even in North Carolina.

 

Take what I said with a grain of Monty Python but the next response I tried to bring up a salient response for you and Hydra which you both raised.

I by the way don't disagree with your actual comment that triggered my response. I am taking about the subject in general.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Rue said:

Hate is hate. Focusing on just one targeted group is a crock of putrid pandering puerility.

Bullcrackers.  New hate crimes and rises in hate crimes represent new problems that government has to address.

That said, Anti-Semitism is the #1 hate crime and they don't seem to be doing much about it.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, Hydraboss said:

I was giving an example of murders related to "islamophobia" as per the thread topic based on your supplied numbers.  Are we narrowing the field to "islamophobic terrorism vs islamic terrorism"?  Your choice - we can go wherever you want with this.

I still think my last post demonstrates why the numbers may or may not be accurate.

Yes, that was the topic of discussion I thought.  You were talking about Islamic terrorism internationally, and I brought it back to Canada.