Islamophobia in Canada

[Rue]

I will assume that you mean Islam for the most part has not moved on. That would be consistent with your earlier reference "The Islam I am comfortable with is the one Ismailis or Amidyah follow where they do not read the violent passages literally."

How and why Judaism and Christianity move on? Why hasn't Islam?

I wonder if neoliberal capitalist expansion hasn't satisfied Judaeo-Christian imperialist expansion needs, and if so, why it hasn't done the same for Islam?

By the way, I appreciated your Koran quotes, and hope you share a few more!

Islam is moving on its just younger than Judeo Christianity and needs the same time to evolve. I think think the delay is caused by corrupt regimes and lack of literacy just as it was once for Judeo Christian societies. If we don't blow ourselves up imagine what all religions will have evolved to thousands of years from now-probably a lot different once we encounter other forms of life. I also am loath to suggest just because we Judeo Christian societies have moved on we are superior.

I consider al homo sapiens hairy apes in need of a lot more evolution. I am working on not pissing on people's heads from tree tops myself.

[Rue]

Why do you suppose we're not seeing any Jewish terrorists attacking western countries, then? I mean, given your suggestion that being mean and disrepsectful to Muslims here inspires terrorism shouldn't it also inspire terrorism in Jews?

Great question.

I suppose The time line of history something to do with it.

The older a society the more and more people in that society learn to read, then think critically and question and so could the answer be because we Jews are older and have had more time to evolve from our savage days so to speak?

Islam still is at the stage where the majority of its followers don't read and so dependent on Mullahs and Imams there is no critical thought and a lot more obedience blindly without questioning.

In its more progressive educated, i.e., literate sects like its Ismaili and Amidyah, its people are as progressive and peaceful as modern Judeo Christians today are and share the same values-so that connection between learning to read and critically questioning and the time to develop that in the masses may have a lot to do with it.

As well maybe Ismailis and Amidyah always being a minority and hated like Jews had a different perception of power as we Jews.

I think we Jews as a collective at one point were very violent and we evolved past it just as Christians have but just how long ago was the holocaust where Christians didn't just betray we Jews but their own fellow Christians in the name of Stalinism or Nazism.

7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses, certain Protestant and Catholics died refusing to go along with their mainstream Christian leaders during the Nazi and Stalin era of madness. Why? What made certain Christians adapt Nazi beliefs and others die refusing to have anything to do with it? What makes a soul reject terror or violence?

Its a complicated question. I mean we had a Jewish extremist idiot kill Yitzak Rabin and he comes from a group pf extremists as bad as the Mslim terrorists or Christian KKK like racists. That man will die claiming he' more of a Jew than me.

I see my Jewishness as no different that Christians see their identity. We see it as something we are born into, a sort of responsibility to carry on certain values where we use logic to prevail. I don't know why it is in the name of Jesus one person will be peaceful and another burn a cross. Jesuits can be for example the most brilliant of logicians and yet some were the most violent of missionaries.

Don't know. I suspect there are bad people in all faiths and some of our societies have had more time to evolve and mature compared to Islamic ones. Sometimes I think Islam is not progessing because of corrupt regimes and lack of literacy but when I say that, then that can be said of all our societies to some extent.

Its a damn good question I have no good answer to.

I would argue this though-Islamic society has failed to incorporate democratic institutions in its governments. Is that because of the lack of separation of church from state?I think so. I think until you had that schism in England that separated Church from daily government, society was held back from evolving.

I believe myself minority sects like Jews or certain Christian sects or certain Muslim minority sects having been victimized by the majority had to find another way other than terror. However ironically wasn't Moses in a way a terrorist?

To try answer your question, it could be argued Islamic societies are younger and corrupt regimes and illiteracy stunt creative and critical thought. They are now underoing a huge civil war as Jews and Christians before them did.

Don't know. All I know is Christianity today looks a hell of a lot different than 500 years ago. Hopefully Islam will evolve like both our religions did and continue to do.

I guess the question is, who do you work with in their community to assure they can evolve with us in peace?

I mean that's the issue? Who do we reach out to? Is there someone to reach out to?

I don't know |Argus but to try get a moderate Muslim on this forum to come out and talk is impossible. What we do get are people claiming to speak for them and defend Iran, Isil, etc. If I was a moderate Muslim I would want to challenge such people an dnot have my religion expropriated to justify terrorism and hatred.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Rue

[Big Guy]

I am convinced!! The Muslims are bad people who are going to come here and kill us.

What can we do? You have identified the threat and have given no solutions or directions. Why?

[Guest]

I am convinced!! The Muslims are bad people who are going to come here and kill us.

What can we do? You have identified the threat and have given no solutions or directions. Why?

image

Edited January 2, 2016 by Michael Hardner
added image link

[SRV]

Islam is moving on its just younger than Judeo Christianity and needs the same time to evolve. I think think the delay is caused by corrupt regimes and lack of literacy just as it was once for Judeo Christian societies. If we don't blow ourselves up imagine what all religions will have evolved to thousands of years from now-probably a lot different once we encounter other forms of life. I also am loath to suggest just because we Judeo Christian societies have moved on we are superior.

So is it just a matter of time before Islam evolves? And are more evolved Judeo-Christians slowing the development of Islam by propping up corrupt regimes?

I consider al homo sapiens hairy apes in need of a lot more evolution. I am working on not pissing on people's heads from tree tops myself.

Your work seems to be producing results. You haven't pissed on my head for several days now!

Edited January 2, 2016 by SRV

[SRV]

Why do you suppose we're not seeing any Jewish terrorists attacking western countries, then? I mean, given your suggestion that being mean and disrepsectful to Muslims here inspires terrorism shouldn't it also inspire terrorism in Jews?

I honestly don't know, but there are other factors to take into consideration. There is no GW on Jewish terrorists, although there are certainly Palestinians being terrorized by Jews. (I don't mean to imply that there are not Jews being terrorized by Palestinians). Perhaps if there were simultaneously, let's say for the sake of argument a Western coalition bombing illegal Zionist settler cells in the West Bank for chopping down Palestinian olive trees, harassing Palestinian shepherds or bulldozing down Palestinian houses etc., and if the Jewish terrorists lacked access to more sophisticated weapons needed to launch a more conventional threat, and/or if the West stopped turning a blind eye to Israeli war crimes, and/or if the West began arming Palestinians; then perhaps we might also begin to see Jewish terrorists carrying out similar acts of terrorism in Canada. Who knows? Its hard to say.

Edited January 2, 2016 by SRV

[tworivers]

I live next to many Muslims here in Surrey. Talk with most of them close to us. One thing is I never feel like I am close to them , we have a business which they do not use because they will stay within their community for most things meaning they buy from other Muslims. I lived north of 60 for many years close to the First Nations people in the Yukon and Alaska , I am proud of that and have more respect for the elders of those people than most around.

The one question I get asked most of all by the Muslims here is if it is true that the Indians (their referral) practice Black Magic and worship the ground and sky.

I asked where they heard such a thing and they say that is what they are taught here in their schools and from what they have seen. I called them idiots for talking out of both sides of their mouth's as they are the first ones to cry prejudice but strange how that prejudice can work both ways.

Oh and they do not consider the First Nations people very intelligent FYI.

Just wanted to mention this as I found it offensive but who do I get to see it stop.

[tworivers]

Maybe when we stop spending billions on policies that create refugees in the first place.

So you did not answer the question I asked so I am guessing the homeless here are doomed and not an issue or important as the refugees because of policies there? If you feel so strongly about those refugees then donate all your worldly goods to them and live in a box , I am sure you will feel very good with yourself .

[On Guard for Thee]

Really? We have lots of groups that we thought would murder us in large numbers? Who would that be? Your statement seemed to suggest that we would have been subjected to lots of attacks but that since we let a lot of immigrants into the country those attacks didn't happen. You said this was proven lots of times. So prove it.

Here ya go Argus. You will probably even get a laugh out of this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/racist-anti-immigrant-cartoons-from-the-turn-of-the-20th-century/383248/

[eyeball]

So you did not answer the question I asked

I answered the gist of a really poorly written question.

so I am guessing the homeless here are doomed

Hey, there's another upside to Islamophobia, all the heartwarming concern towards the plight of the homeless you guy's seem to have recently developed - like your concern for homosexuals.

not an issue or important as the refugees because of policies there?

Why should homelessness be an issue now that you conservatives have become concerned about it?

If you feel so strongly about those refugees then donate all your worldly goods to them and live in a box , I am sure you will feel very good with yourself.

No. If you think wasting billions on policies that create refugees in the first place is such a good idea you pay for it.

[dialamah]

I don't know |Argus but to try get a moderate Muslim on this forum to come out and talk is impossible. What we do get are people claiming to speak for them and defend Iran, Isil, etc. If I was a moderate Muslim I would want to challenge such people an dnot have my religion expropriated to justify terrorism and hatred.

Would you bother taking part in discussions with people who called Jews stoneage, backward, uncivilized, violent?

Muslims around the world denounce violent extremism, ISIS, and terrorism, that you haven't heard them is because you don't want to.

video

Edited January 2, 2016 by Michael Hardner
added video link

[Guest]

Would you bother taking part in discussions with people who called Jews stoneage, backward, uncivilized, violent?

Muslims around the world denounce violent extremism, ISIS, and terrorism, that you haven't heard them is because you don't want to.

video

I hear them. I appreciate them. But it doesn't change anything.

It's like me saying I don't believe in the Empire. The Black Hole of Calcutta doesn't go away.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Michael Hardner
added video link

[dialamah]

I hear them. I appreciate them. But it doesn't change anything.

It's like me saying I don't believe in the Empire. The Black Hole of Calcutta doesn't go away.

Was only in response to someone saying that moderate Muslims should be out denouncing the extremists. They are, and they do. But they'll still be blamed and held responsible for all the damage and pain the extremists cause.

[Argus]

Here ya go Argus. You will probably even get a laugh out of this.

Cartoons are probably about the right level of sophistication to accompany your nonsense claims anyway.

[Bryan]

I am convinced!! The Muslims are bad people who are going to come here and kill us.

What can we do? You have identified the threat and have given no solutions or directions. Why?

It's really easy. Deal with it the same way we deal with Hells Angels:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/hells-angels-marked-as-criminals-by-manitoba-justice-1.2546165

[Big Guy]

It's really easy. Deal with it the same way we deal with Hells Angels:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/hells-angels-marked-as-criminals-by-manitoba-justice-1.2546165

"The Hells Angels motorcycle club is now formally listed as a criminal organization in Manitoba — the first of any government in North America to make that designation."

So your solution is to list all Muslims as a criminal organization in Canada. - I do not want to try to put words into your mouth or attribute anything to you that you do not agree with. Is that your solution?

[Guest]

Was only in response to someone saying that moderate Muslims should be out denouncing the extremists. They are, and they do. But they'll still be blamed and held responsible for all the damage and pain the extremists cause.

Only by a few ignorant idiots. I can never see blaming anyone for the actions of others regardless of who those people were and regardless of what the actions were. That goes for everyone. Literally. FWIW, I don't think any Muslim has the obligation to denounce the actions of Muslims they disagree with. (Same as anyone else, as as per my second sentence above) It's nice if they do, but I don't fault them if they don't.

(Btw, in my post to which you responded, I meant the British response to the Black Hole of Calcutta, not the atrocity itself. My statement could be misconstrued, otherwise)

[Bryan]

"The Hells Angels motorcycle club is now formally listed as a criminal organization in Manitoba — the first of any government in North America to make that designation."

So your solution is to list all Muslims as a criminal organization in Canada. - I do not want to try to put words into your mouth or attribute anything to you that you do not agree with. Is that your solution?

List ISLAM as a criminal organization. People from all walks of life and all cultures and countries can decide on their own if they want to identify with that ideology or renounce it.

[Big Guy]

List ISLAM as a criminal organization. People from all walks of life and all cultures and countries can decide on their own if they want to identify with that ideology or renounce it.

Thank you for your honesty. But would it then not be illegal to become a Muslim?

[Bryan]

Thank you for your honesty. But would it then not be illegal to become a Muslim?

As much as it's illegal to become a Hell's Angel or a holocaust denier. Personal thoughts are your own, it's association, action, dissemination, etc that cross the line.

[Rue]

Would you bother taking part in discussions with people who called Jews stoneage, backward, uncivilized, violent?

Muslims around the world denounce violent extremism, ISIS, and terrorism, that you haven't heard them is because you don't want to.

video

Your comments are typical. You deliberately misrepresented what I stated. Using your technique no one can state anything negative about Islamic society as it must mean an insult to all Muslims. Play that dishonest, extremist, game with someone else. Move on.

If someone wants to criticize Ultra-Orthodox Judaism for being antiquated and outmoded I would not construe that as anti Jewish at all. I do it all the time. See unlike you I know the difference between criticizing aspects of Islam and assuming when its done it has to insult all Muslims as you misconstrue it.

That is the difference between you and i. I have regularly participated in discussions that criticize certain aspects of Jewish religious belief and I criticize those aspects or beliefs when they are extremist and violent just as I would Islam or Christianity or any other faith belief.

Anyways thank you for exposing your true intolerance. It was a point I was trusting would come out. You can pose all you want as a defender of innocent Muslims but you aren't-you in fact try shut down and censor challenges against extremism and you couch it by hiding it under the Muslim as victim card.

Move on. You picked the wrong person to play liberal guilt shrill with.

[Rue]

I honestly don't know, but there are other factors to take into consideration. There is no GW on Jewish terrorists, although there are certainly Palestinians being terrorized by Jews. (I don't mean to imply that there are not Jews being terrorized by Palestinians). Perhaps if there were simultaneously, let's say for the sake of argument a Western coalition bombing illegal Zionist settler cells in the West Bank for chopping down Palestinian olive trees, harassing Palestinian shepherds or bulldozing down Palestinian houses etc., and if the Jewish terrorists lacked access to more sophisticated weapons needed to launch a more conventional threat, and/or if the West stopped turning a blind eye to Israeli war crimes, and/or if the West began arming Palestinians; then perhaps we might also begin to see Jewish terrorists carrying out similar acts of terrorism in Canada. Who knows? Its hard to say.

You think you have any credibility with me sitting in Canada playing defender of Palestinians against bad Zionist settlers? That's the shtick you wanna play? You sound to me like a Monty Python sketch.

You haven't been to the West Bank. You really want to rely on the internet for your take on what goes on? Your confines for you rreality are nothing more than an animated skit to me- a head that divides into two pieces of swiss cheese.

Right and now for something completely different. Your words, your take on the West Bank come across to me as nothing more than another Monty Python sketch with you posing as an expert on parrots. Might I suggest your line of reasoning is why Terry Gilliam invented the squashing farting foot.?

What next will you recite for me the 45 cheeses?

You don't know the Jewish settlers on the West Bank but you have smeered them all as illegals or live parrots.

Those people you call illegal are not illegal. They are neither dead or alive parrots for that matter,

You show a complete and utter ignorance of international law calling them parrots.

If circumsized settlers who follow the stories of Moses are on land you "think" they have no legal right to, it doesn't make them as people parrots or illegal.

Like any vole which they actually are, they have the right to live and exist in peace no different than the other voles you think are wombats.

If anything, assuming it could be proven these voles are on land that belongs to womb-bats, the vole does not become an illegal species- it would simply make their possession of the land they are on subject to a dispute as to whose rodency has primary occupation access.

Trespassing does not make a vole an illegal vole it makes their possession of land disputable in court and subject to a superior claim if in fact that superior claim can be proven. That superior claim by the way is not from the kingdom of wombats in their entirety, but an individual wombat angry as a titmouse over not being able to live where the vole now is.

I challenge your very premises of describing the habitat of voles and wombats because you don't discuss legal issues such as the individual right to title of land-what you have done is blur an individual land title dispute into a pretext to call voles rats.

You use a land titles dispute as a platform to question the very right for voles to exist by questioning their very existence and trying to redfine them as illegal or rats.

Your pontification is nothing more than the know it all Colonel or Police Officer from a Monty Python skit saying right now, move along, the vole is a rat and that is that.

The best way to describe your position is the Spanish Inquisition cardinals lecturing voles that they are rats.

What now Cardinal Fang? Will you explain to me the 45 types of cheese?

Go on then will this be before or after you explain the mating rituals of a yack?

Nudge Nudge wink wink know what I mean you say. Uh no. Voles are no rats. You want contradictions go down the hall. This is the room for vole verification.

Under international law, Israel by not governing Palestinians on the same bank with the same government as Israeli citizens, in fact violates an international law. That is what breaks the international law. The Jews like Muslims on the West Bank both remain voles. Neither are wombats, rats or titmouses either.

The actual squatting of land and conflict to land titles is domestic law as to individual real property title rights not sovereignty. People like you don't seem to grasp that point, or for that matter when a parrot is actually dead.

A vole is a vole is a vole unless its a titmouse.

If someone squats on land they do not own its called trespassing which is a civil offence not an illegal parrot.

It doesn't make them illegal- it makes their occupation of land illegal and if you are too lazy to use the correct description then get into a fish face slap contest with someone else.

Next, I know you have never been to the West Bank because if you had, you would know there are as many Palestinians squatting on land they do not own as Jews and I don't see a peep from you about them being illegal and having stolen land from Palestinians and posing themselves as Palestinians.

In your world voles are illegal parrots and wombats don't pee on one another. Right then.

That's our difference. I speak from having seen the Holy Grail and defeated the Black Kmight.

I in fact witnessed and lived with and I take the time to understand the laws of the West Bank and who has in fact conflicting land title rights and this is why I love voles and do not mistake them as you for parrots or wombat oppressors.

I understand the conflict of land titles rights between voles and wombats as something that arose one on one on an individual between rodent dispute not a collective one.

Let's not also forget the titmouses shall we who some refer to as Christians.

I also understand that the Palestinian authority (Wombat Liberation Organization) deliberately blew up the land titles office to hide the fact that most land on the West Bank is now illegally occupied by in fact Muslims er I mean wombats most of whom did not originate from Palestine and stole the land from fellow wombats, voles and titmouses.

I know because I lived there I saw people come in and steal the land protected by the Wombat Lib Org or Fatah or whoever there terrorist cell protecting them was. You want to melt it down to only Jews/voles?

Oh bloody hell its a camel then not a parrot. You know the difference?

There are Jews who have lived on the West Bank since Biblical days and prior to any Muslims. They don't recognize the state of Israel's right to exist as they are still waiting for the return of the Messiah which they believe must happen before they believe Israel can be created. Their land rights are not recognized by the Palestinian Authority at all. Under sharia law, no Jew can ever own land let alone have a country. Then there are those who ended up there the very same way womb-bats did. In your world wombats somehow came to the land differently than voles. Never mind they scurried in the same way-right then they did not, womb-bats floated in magically and divinely, the voles well they came in dragging themselves on their bum bums. Bum bum people you know. Nudge nudge wink wink, a vole is a vole but a wombat is not. Only voles have anal glands. Wink wink nudge nudge.

The PA also does not recognize the land rights of any Christians or Jews who have legal right to their land under domestic law.

They in fact have interpreted UN resolutions to allow them to break domestic property law in the name of a greater sovereignty claim to the entire West Bank.

The UN resolutions can not and have never done that.

International law can only define an international border between consenting sovereignties, nothing else.

In your world its oh so simple. Bad Jews, innocent victim Palestinians.

No. They are not dead parrots. They are voles the whole bloody lot of them and voles can be defined by you some Pepperpot from Brackenshire as wonky little timouses.

You want to discuss the land titles conflict which deals with Ottoman Empire laws, Jewish and Christian laws, Muslim sharia law, municipal, civil and international law but not criminal law, do get back to me when you learn the difference between a vole camel and dead parrot.

Right then move along this sketch is over. Foot comes down and fart.

Ok Mr. Canadian Titmouse.

Get t back to me when you have done a land title search on your property. Go on look in your tree of ancestry before you point your superior Caucasian Christian finger at me....me thinks you have rat in your ancestry.

Curtain closes decapitating his a the wombat head which turns into a titmouse and vole which then explodes into a camel with nipples and a bra.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Rue

[WestCoastRunner]

List ISLAM as a criminal organization. People from all walks of life and all cultures and countries can decide on their own if they want to identify with that ideology or renounce it.

I don't think Islam should be designated as a criminal organization but it should be called out repeatedly for its mysoginistic views. Western countries should do more to put pressure on countries that practice these views (sanctions) or other means. I think eventually this religion will evolve but it's going to take pressure from western countries.

This seems a reasonable approach.

[jacee]

List ISLAM as a criminal organization.

List Catholicism as a criminal organization, eg, for its policies of obstructing the law to harbour and protect pedophiles.

IE, You might not want to go down that road. :/

.

[SRV]

ISIL's narrative to all Muslims is that the West is intolerant of and poses a threat to all of Islam. Most Muslims whose experiences cause them to agree with ISIS on that particular point will probably not decide that joining ISIS is the best way do defend themselves. But some --=a very small number-- have left Al Qaeda to join ISIS because Al Qaeda wasn't doing enough.

Certain actions by the Western countries belie ISIL's narrative --the taking in of Syrian refugees for example. Other actions --the banning of the niqab for example, or declaring Islam to be a criminal organization like the Hell Angels-- strengthen ISIS narrative. It would stand to reason, therefore, that ISIS would like the West to take more actions that strengthen their narrative, and take less actions that belie their narrative.

The paradox here is that ISIS, insofar as it is able, will take actions to convince countries who welcome, accommodate and respect Muslims that they shouldn't, because such accommodation weakens the credibility of their narrative in the eyes of Muslims. The Paris attacks might have been one attempt at making France less welcoming. The irony here is that the countries most welcoming of Muslims may also be the most likely targets of ISIS, while less welcoming countries who give ISIS narrative more credibility will notbe targeted. It is in ISIS interests to convince all Muslims living abroad that they are not, and will never be welcomed or accepted. It is in ISIS interests to make Westerners fearful of all Muslims. Moderate Muslims residing abrad may be fearful of speaking out for fear of reprisals from ISIS cells in their host or adapted countries.

Thoughts?