Paris Terrorist Attacks

[Argus]

Listen I know some of you guys may not wish to hear the facts but let's look at both sides of the coin.

Here's a news flash for you. Your opinion does not equal 'the facts'.

Second why these murders are killing themselves to murder and justify it by shouting God is great?

Because they're religious fanatics, and their interpretation of Islam says all who do not worship as they do are infidels and must be made to bow to Allah.

The west (mainly US, Britain and France) have been very dreadful to these people. They have supported puppet regimes and dictators like the ones in Saudi Arabia, Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iran, Jordan .... and in spite of the fact that these regimes had been engaged in a war against their own people they continued to supply them with military hardware and train their intelligence services. Not to mention that Britain and France alone colonized half the world in 19th century. They took their resources like oil for free or cheap and then almost colonized them politically or economically while keeping them poor and enriched themselves.

This is the typical response of the liberal, exempting the locals for all the problems in their nations while blaming the West. And as usual uses a primitive grasp of history to justify that opinion. In actual fact, all of history in every land is a tale of the strong preying on the weak. Every nation, every tribe, every group expanded to the limits of its economic and military power. There are no exceptions that I'm aware of.

The middle east area came into the possession of the West after the Ottoman Empire lost a war it had joined against France and Britain. And one must remember the Ottomans were not kindly and gentle overlords, nor were any of the previous rulers of the middle east. Over the following few decades Britain and France set about establishing what might be called 'home rule' for the locals, which evolved into independence. It was a similar story throughout the world, something people like you always ignore. Yet it is only from Muslim nations that these fanatical attacks originate. We don't see Africans flying airplanes into western buildings, Argentinians blowing themselves up at rock concerts or Indians shooting up restaurants in Paris.

We treat independent nations as independent nations, and that includes trading with them and selling them stuff. That is what you do with independent nations, unless of course, we refuse to deal with them, in which case people like you will blame the West for economic hardships which cause poverty and death there. It is a kind of hand wringing self loathing which seems to want to assume all guilt while absolving all the locals of any responsibility for their own actions. It is also the liberal bigotry of low expectations which presumes the locals are so inferior they cannot be held responsible for their own actions.

The west has full heatedly and unconditionally supported the state of Israel and supplied them with advanced and deadly military hardware which for more than half a century have been engaged in murderous campaign against its neighbors. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have died since as a result of terrorist actions by Israelis.

Well, that is the perspective of those who hate Jews. Any cursory examination of history shows that in fact Israel has been attacked repeatedly and relentlessly by its neighbours from the moment they gained independence. Some would have preferred those attacks succeed so there would be fewer Jews in the world. But the Jews proved quite resilient and, with the help of mostly US military aid, fought off those attacks and established themselves as a strong nation. Is it imperfect? Certainly. But then, every nation around them is a brutal autocratic dictatorship. And contrary to your strange view of history, many were quite hostile to the West for quite some time and taking their guidance from the Soviets.

All in all, your attempt at absolving the terrorists for their actions and blaming it instead on our colonial history with the middle east fails on a number of different levels.

[Argus]

Noooo. Let's panic. Turn our society into a police state. Pour trillions of dollars into the military. Bomb somebody - it doesn't matter who. Let's see how many Muslim countries we can occupy simultaneously until we bankrupt ourselves. Feel better now?

No, but it's fun watching you run around in circles spewing nonsense.

No one here is urging panic. No one is urging a police state (although your definition of it is oddly broad), and no one has suggested pouring money into the military, at least, not simply due to this incident. But continue ranting. It's silly but harmless.

[Argus]

What about the terrorist activity we are supporting in the take down of Assad? Lots of people being killed by NATO weapons. No mention of that from what I have read in your posts.

Your conspiracy theories don't really play into my posts, much.

[GostHacked]

Your conspiracy theories don't really play into my posts, much.

I'll take 'What is the Free Syrian Army?' for 100 Alex.

[CITIZEN_2015]

As usual Argus you falsify the facts, make up some historic lies and deny what is posted as historic facts. I don't even waste my time to rebuff.

Just answer me ONE question (the comment you did not respond to). Was the 1953 military coup in Iran when Iran's democratically elected government tried to nationalize Iran's oil industry but was overthrown by US - British Alliance (leading to militant Islamic revolution 25 years later and hence spread of islamist militancy in the ME and hence most of the extremists problems we face today). Is that a historic fact or a lie on my part?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Edited November 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Smallc]

Your chances of dying from a car accident, dog attack, frostbite and lightning strike are greater than being killed in a terrorist attack.

Would you not take precautions against those things? I'm not afraid of terrorists. I'm saying that it is a real threat, given current world circumstances.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Smallc

[CITIZEN_2015]

Historical events that go back beyond WWI have contributed to the current situation. If you think the response of the west to events of the kind that happened in Paris last night should be tempered because of that, well, I disagree.

No historic events up to present time not only those events going back to beyond WWI and I gave recent examples.

No I wasn't suggesting we should not respond. The response should be harsh and deadly and directed towards those responsible not innocent civilians. However, bombing alone will not solve the problems. The west should cease it hostility against middle eastern nations, stop supporting corrupt dictatorial regimes like the ones in Saudi Arabia and many others and support democratic forces who want to overthrow corrupt evil dictatorial regimes in ME instead of negotiating or trading with those regimes. And more importantly stop its unconditional support for the murderous state of Israel. Russia is as guilty if not more.

Edited November 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Smallc]

I suppose I could have made a rounding error, feel free to correct my math.

Not that I support the plan, but you did make an error - you assumed there's 1 screener.

[eyeball]

But .. Mission Accomplished. And I have seen rhetoric on this board after the troops left pertaining to 'why can't Iraq get it's shit together', and 'why is it our problem'.

The foresight from many of you here is deplorable.

Their hindsight is just as completely FUBAR too.

[Argus]

I'll take 'What is the Free Syrian Army?' for 100 Alex.

A mostly destroyed group because we wouldn't help them out much while ISIS was getting tons of weapons and money from places like the gulf states and Saudi Arabia.

[Big Guy]

Some posters here are attempting to equate the acceptance of Syrian refugees and terrorism. But the facts appear not to back that:

http://www.ibtimes.c...-france-2184317

"France has not accepted as many Syrian refugees as other European countries. Only about 20,000 Syrians over the last several years have entered France, according to the United Nations."

Canada accepts about 250,000 immigrants a year. Another 3,000 refugees arrive and soon disappear into the population or across the border into the USA. Does anybody really think that these ISIS terrorists need to hide among refugees - refugees who will screened?

As to our contribution, it is no secret that this and previous attacks took place because other countries want to insert themselves into a local civil war. In fact that is the excuse these ISIS guys are using. They are telling other countries to butt out.

And the solution from some bright lights is that we increase Canadian involvement into their civil war - that sure makes a lot of sense.

At this point in time, certain countries are dropping bombs on Syrians and Iraqis as they live in their countries. Some are members of ISIS but bombs do not discriminate. Even our drones kill only 10 percent of the people that they target. Therefore, on the average, our drones take out 9 folks who we have not targeted for every 1 terrorist we intended to kill. OOPS!!

So these guys who have had bombs dropping on their heads in their country get really pi$$ed and decide to bomb these bomb droppers in their host countries - and we get outraged? They do not have airplanes or ships. All they have are bombs and people ready to die in taking out their enemies. So they retaliate with what they got.

Now some bright lights say that we have to invade those countries with ground troops. So now we should attack them on their own lands and use the Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan strategy that worked so well in those countries.

How about we leave it to them and the USA to straighten out their problems and their power structures before some of them pi$$ed off terrorists decide to retaliate in Canada for the bombs that we are dropping on their country.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Big Guy

[eyeball]

No I wasn't suggesting we should not respond. The response should be harsh and deadly and directed towards those responsible not innocent civilians.

Respond against who? It looks like the people responsible for attacking Paris are dead. Just like the people responsible for flying the planes on 9/11. They all died in their attacks too.

[Argus]

Not that I support the plan, but you did make an error - you assumed there's 1 screener.

He actually didn't.

here are 46 days left in the year, or better yet, ~ 1104 hours left in this year. To bring in 25000 Syrians by years end, assuming GoC officials work 24/7, they will have to process ~23 Syrian refugees an hour, or better put, screen each Syrian every 2 1/2 minutes

That you need to process 23 an hour doesn't suggest only one screener. You could have 23 screeners and it would still be impossible. You could have 230 screeners and it would still be impossible. 230 screeners mean each one has ten hours to screen each refugee. How do you do that when you're dealing with people who largely have no documents and come from, or say they come from war zones?

The federal government does security screening on new employees, and it takes weeks, sometimes months, and that is here in Canada with people who have all their local papers and documents and histories intact and who speak English. If you cram in 25,000 "New hires" who don't speak English, have no documents and no verifiable history into a single month ... well, it's simply not possible.

[Smallc]

Respond against who? It looks like the people responsible for attacking Paris are dead. Just like the people responsible for flying the planes on 9/11. They all died in their attacks too.

No, the people responsible are not all dead, nor were they after the planes hit the buildings.

[Argus]

As usual Argus you falsify the facts, make up some historic lies and deny what is posted as historic facts. I don't even waste my time to rebuff.

And yet, here you are not rebuffing but spewing venom - because you CAN'T rebuff.

Just answer me ONE question (the comment you did not respond to). Was the 1953 military coup in Iran

Would you like to demonstrate how the coup in Iran is responsible for the mess throughout the middle east, and throughout the Muslim world?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Argus

[Guest]

No historic events up to present time not only those events going back to beyond WWI and I gave recent examples.

No I wasn't suggesting we should not respond. The response should be harsh and deadly and directed towards those responsible not innocent civilians. However, bombing alone will not solve the problems. The west should cease it hostility against middle eastern nations, stop supporting corrupt dictatorial regimes like the ones in Saudi Arabia and many others and support democratic forces who want to overthrow corrupt evil dictatorial regimes in ME instead of negotiating or trading with those regimes. And more importantly stop its unconditional support for the murderous state of Israel. Russia is as guilty if not more.

I knew we'd get to Israel eventually.

At least we agree on the response.

[Argus]

I knew we'd get to Israel eventually.

At least we agree on the response.

It's always the Jews fault somehow.

[Guest]

Respond against who? It looks like the people responsible for attacking Paris are dead. Just like the people responsible for flying the planes on 9/11. They all died in their attacks too.

No problem then. That should be the end of it.

We can start booking holidays in Iraq and Syria. Should be fairly inexpensive.

[Smallc]

He actually didn't.

The 2.5 minute figure is for 1 person.

[eyeball]

No, the people responsible are not all dead, nor were they after the planes hit the buildings.

You're saying there were survivors?

[Smallc]

No problem then. That should be the end of it.

We can start booking holidays in Iraq and Syria. Should be fairly inexpensive.

I booked mine just this morning.

[Smallc]

You're saying there were survivors?

Of course. They were the ones not holding guns.

[Derek 2.0]

Not that I support the plan, but you did make an error - you assumed there's 1 screener.

Ahh no, I didn't, as I clearly explained such is a calculation on man-hour requirements..........Nor is one person, working 24/7, processing the current (cited) estimate that the Government states is a process that takes upwards of 36 months per claim.

[eyeball]

Would you like to demonstrate how the coup in Iran is responsible for the mess throughout the middle east, and throughout the Muslim world?

Try this.

All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror

Book

[Argus]

"France has not accepted as many Syrian refugees as other European countries. Only about 20,000 Syrians over the last several years have entered France, according to the United Nations."

Your statement is irrelevant. Given the open borders of the European Union, once a group arrives in one country they can then simply drive or fly to any other country in the union without restraint or checks. There are no border controls blocking someone who arrives in Greece as a refugee from traveling wherever he or she wishes to go.

As to our contribution, it is no secret that this and previous attacks took place because other countries want to insert themselves into a local civil war. In fact that is the excuse these ISIS guys are using. They are telling other countries to butt out.

Canada has always had this 'thing' about genocide, you see. And it has always believed in confronting hostile groups through alliances. There are those who wish to simply hide in the back of the crowd and let others do the fighting, of course. And there are those who would want us to ignore genocide as long as it doesn't directly involve us. They would even wish us to ignore the united Arab attacks on Israel in hopes the Arabs commit genocide and remove those horrible Jews from the picture.

So these guys who have had bombs dropping on their heads in their country get really pi$$ed and decide to bomb these bomb droppers in their host countries - and we get outraged? They do not have airplanes or ships. All they have are bombs and people ready to die in taking out their enemies. So they retaliate with what they got.

This the morally bankrupt position which equates the actions of genocidal rapists with that of the police trying to control them. Because the West has confronted the genocidal rapists in their military attacks they have a 'right' to take revenge by coming to the West to deliberately target unarmed, helpless civilians. It is an utterly contemptible attempt at excusing their behaviour born from an ideology of liberal bigotry which always seeks to excuse the actions of non-whites because they are presumed to be inferior.

How about we leave it to them and the USA to straighten out their problems and their power structures before some of them pi$$ed off terrorists decide to retaliate in Canada for the bombs that we are dropping on their country.

But another of Canada's habits is thinking strategically. We could have done nothing and let Hitler overrun Europe, for example. Not our problem. Until, of course, the new, massive Hitler regime starts coming over here. Then we could have fought them on our shores instead of Europe's. We could have let the Soviet Union take over nation after nation and draw half the world into its grasp. Not our problem. Until it became our problem with a newly powerful Soviet Union attacking us directly. And we could ignore ISIS, not our problem. Let them spread out and take over more and more of the middle east (and hopefully do away with those filthy Jews eventually). But groups like ISIS are never satisfied with what they have. They will keep expanding until they are stopped. So strategic thinking says stop them in their infancy, rather than wait until they've got million man armies.

That is hard for the "Not my problem" set to understand since they don't look further than their full bellies and their comfortable chair before the fire, and lack the imagination to see what future present dangers can lead to.