Volkswagen Fraud

[TimG]

Excellent background on topic:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-23/climate-politics-and-the-volkswagen-scandal

What did Europe's regulators know and when did they know it? Attention has centered on VW's use of a "defeat device," as though that's the crime. In fact, regulators know that engine management systems need to be switched to a different mode when cars are being tested: That's necessary to get accurate results.

...

VW's prospects for recovery turn on them: Was it an outlaw by the standards of its industry, or just one cheat among many while regulators looked away?

...

It's this scandal that teaches the most important lessons. Beginning in the mid-1990s, mindful of their commitments to cut carbon emissions, Europe's governments embarked on a prolonged drive to convert their car fleets from gasoline to diesel. With generous use of tax preferences, they succeeded.

This is starting to sound like a variation on the biofuel boondoggles where politicians obsessed with the CO2 boogyman push industry to do things which cause more harm than good.

[overthere]

VW's prospects for recovery turn on them: Was it an outlaw by the standards of its industry, or just one cheat among many while regulators looked away?

This is silly.

VW is a massive corp who got caught being naughty. THeir vehicles are no less reliabloe, powerful or economic as a result. GM, Ford and others have sold killer cars and .... still doing fine. Toyota had loads of saftey recalls and here they are... #1. Hyundai just got caught lying about their fuel economy.... company is booming.

VW will pay some fines, act contrite and quickly get back to making billions.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is silly.

Agreed....it is not even the first time that manufacturers were caught using emissions "defeat devices". Diesel auto sales in the U.S. are less than 1% of the total market. VW is the largest in the world by total revenue. So maybe they have to be #2 or #3...for a spell.

[GostHacked]

What I can't figure out is why VW thought they would get away with it?

Did they really think that a third party agency would not look at the real world performance?

Seems to me that BMW and Mercedes Benz competitors should have known something was up too.

What is jaw dropping is the incompetence of management.

If VW is doing it, how many other car manufacturers are doing it? I bet most of them.

[dre]

This is silly.

VW is a massive corp who got caught being naughty. THeir vehicles are no less reliabloe, powerful or economic as a result.

Well they ARE less powerful and economic as a result... Thats the whole point of the story. They are going to have to apply a firmware patch that significantly reduces the fuel economy and performance of millions of vehicles.

And what Hyudai did is completely different.

[cybercoma]

Which of course will affect their value.

I'm not sure it will be quite that simple. The Passat uses urea injection to control NOX, the Golf and Jetta do not.

Our '15 Jetta uses AdBlue, which is urea.

[eyeball]

What did Europe's regulators know and when did they know it?

Regulatory oversight - the lack thereof that is - is like a keystone that's propping up most of the economy. Pull it out and replace it with, persistent monitoring lets say, and it would probably destroy the economy and be the end of civilization as we know it.

Like I said, ignorance is bliss.

Edited September 26, 2015 by eyeball

[Wilber]

Our '15 Jetta uses AdBlue, which is urea.

OK, I'm a bit behind then. When the new Passat came out, it was using urea but the Golf and Jetta weren't.

[Wilber]

You are ignoring the simple fact that it will be nothing at all to mechanically defeat the VW 'fix'. VW owners won't be ignoring that reality.

Rechipping vehciles usually involves simply inserting a device in the easily accessible harness under the hood. If the govt requires ongoing or annual testing, you just take it out of the harness. It is that simple. Many thousands of vehicles of all brands already have this setup.

The check engine light? Must be a crappy chipset that causes any of that to happen.

It used to be that tuning devices would mask the removal of emission controls but the EPA dropped the hammer on tuner manufacturers some time ago. It's not that it can't be done, it's illegal to make and sell ones that do. A lot of new diesel truck owners who try to deactivate all or parts (like EGR) of their emissions equipment using tuners are finding that out. The tuners may work but they find themselves staring at a check engine light. Tuners can only be sold that do not interfere with the vehicle's emission controls.

The only exceptions are race tuners and they require all the emission controls to be removed in order to work and are not legal for street use.

[Wilber]

Not in the U.S., which has a patchwork of state level emissions standards and compliance checks. Many cars and light trucks are licensed with failed pollution controls, many purposely defeated by vehicle owners themselves. There are also waivers granted in states that have testing.

Owners altering functioning emission systems is not the same as manufacturers building vehicles that don't meet the standard in the first place. Enforcement may be patchy but as you say, you might get away with it in one state but not another, which would mean you might not be able to register or sell a car in another state. Also, a lot of these cars are still under warranty and any time those cars go to a dealer for service or warranty work, owners will get the update whether they want it or not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Owners altering functioning emission systems is not the same as manufacturers building vehicles that don't meet the standard in the first place.

Agreed, but the largest cause of emissions controls noncompliance is vehicle age and state of maintenance. Older vehicles will eventually go south on emissions compliance because of 0₂ sensors, catalyst, EGR valve, mass air flow sensor (MAF), vacuum line failure, and several other mechanical components that fail due to age. That is why most states that even have emissions testing waive certification until the vehicle has certain age/miles driven. Owners can get waivers if the cost to restore vehicle emissions exceeds a certain amount.

Enforcement may be patchy but as you say, you might get away with it in one state but not another, which would mean you might not be able to register or sell a car in another state. Also, a lot of these cars are still under warranty and any time those cars go to a dealer for service or warranty work, owners will get the update whether they want it or not.

My VW was under warranty for three years and I refused any ECU firmware updates. I prefer to manage the car's firmware with a third party VAG COM tool and proprietary software (VCDS) using the OBD2 port, same as the dealer. Chip programmers are still readily available. Lots of us have been playing the emissions controls game for decades....I ripped out my first air injection pump as a teenager. To pass emissions testing, we would just temporarily reinstall components and retard the timing.

I don't know what the acceptance level is/was in Canada, but many US car owners resented the whole scheme/scam of annual emissions testing, and many states have scaled it back at too costly and burdensome to manage. Cars are much "cleaner" than they use to be.

[Wilber]

My VW was under warranty for three years and I refused any ECU firmware updates. I prefer to manage the car's firmware with a third party VAG COM tool and proprietary software (VCDS) using the OBD2 port, same as the dealer. Chip programmers are still readily available. Lots of us have been playing the emissions controls game for decades....I ripped out my first air injection pump as a teenager. To pass emissions testing, we would just temporarily reinstall components and retard the timing.

I don't know what the acceptance level is/was in Canada, but many US car owners resented the whole scheme/scam of annual emissions testing, and many states have scaled it back at too costly and burdensome to manage. Cars are much "cleaner" than they use to be.

I don't think owners will have that choice when it comes to this update. Dealers will either do it or face fines.

I know programmers are still available, they are for my truck as well, but it is no longer legal to make programers that change or mask changes to emissions controls. You can find lots of discussion about this on diesel truck owners forums. Owners who want to do that have to find used programmers made before the law changed or use racing programmers which require removing all the emissions equipment. EGR systems, CAT's, DPF's, everything.

We had emissions testing in the more populous parts of BC for quite a while. Originally, cars had to be tested yearly, then it was changed to vehicles newer than a particular year were tested every two years. Testing started on vehicles more than four years old and was done by running the vehicle through a cycle on a dyno, with a machine analyzing the exhaust gas. Then, later models were just checked for codes through their OBDII ports. Last year testing was stopped as it was thought the average age of vehicles on the road made any benefits from testing not worth the effort.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Wilber

[Wilber]

Our '15 Jetta uses AdBlue, which is urea.

Just found out that 2015 was the first year for urea on the Jetta so you might be OK with not much change.

[overthere]

It used to be that tuning devices would mask the removal of emission controls but the EPA dropped the hammer on tuner manufacturers some time ago. It's not that it can't be done, it's illegal to make and sell ones that do. A lot of new diesel truck owners who try to deactivate all or parts (like EGR) of their emissions equipment using tuners are finding that out. The tuners may work but they find themselves staring at a check engine light. Tuners can only be sold that do not interfere with the vehicle's emission controls.

The only exceptions are race tuners and they require all the emission controls to be removed in order to work and are not legal for street use.

Jeez, imagine how hard it would be to put a piece of masking tape over that pesky check engine light.

It is nearly as hard as unplugging the chipset before you go to the dealer or for an emissions check.

[Wilber]

Jeez, imagine how hard it would be to put a piece of masking tape over that pesky check engine light.

It is nearly as hard as unplugging the chipset before you go to the dealer or for an emissions check.

You could but the CEL monitors a lot of things, some of them quite serious. The light prompts you to have the engine checked for codes to find out what the problem is. If the CEL is on all the time, you won't know if your tuner caused the light or something more serious.

Replacing a diesel in one of the new 3/4 or 1T trucks will run you about 15 grand.

These days, many programmers are not just chipsets. They actually reprogram the ECM through the OBDII port. You can reprogram them back to stock but not without a trace.

[bush_cheney2004]

You could but the CEL monitors a lot of things, some of them quite serious. The light prompts you to have the engine checked for codes to find out what the problem is. If the CEL is on all the time, you won't know if your tuner caused the light or something more serious.

I would just read the code and clear the CEL with a scan tool for friends and family; they just hated driving around with the CEL on. Told them what the code meant and waited for it to come back. Must be a psychology thing as they didn't understand how their cars worked. Some people still fall for the loose gas cap - evaporation error code and go to the stealership to get ripped off.

Replacing a diesel in one of the new 3/4 or 1T trucks will run you about 15 grand.

These days, many programmers are not just chipsets. They actually reprogram the ECM through the OBDII port. You can reprogram them back to stock but not without a trace.

Yes...the newer ones let you save several different set point profiles, including stock. People who buy diesel power sign up for more expensive everything, except for maybe fuel mileage. Low end torque sure is nice though.

[Wilber]

What code? My point is, if your CEL is on all the time because of your tuner, how do you know you have another code that means something more serious?

[cybercoma]

Just found out that 2015 was the first year for urea on the Jetta so you might be OK with not much change.

Wasn't it a 2015 that they found was cheating?

[Wilber]

Wasn't it a 2015 that they found was cheating?

Hard to find out. From what I understand, their tests took place prior to 2014 on a Jetta TDI which would mean a non urea car but it effects all post 2009 2.0 TDI's including the 2014-15 Passat which has always had urea. VW has also withdrawn the 3.0 TDI from the market even though it uses urea and wasn't named in the cheating. I think it is going to be a while before we know exactly what is going on.

[bush_cheney2004]

What code? My point is, if your CEL is on all the time because of your tuner, how do you know you have another code that means something more serious?

The scan tool will log/report all codes. Most cars will default to limp mode just to get you home or to a garage. In all my years with OBD compliant cars, I have never had a CEL/MIL that was serious compared to what experience would tell you (e.g. leaking head gasket).

[Wilber]

The scan tool will log/report all codes. Most cars will default to limp mode just to get you home or to a garage. In all my years with OBD compliant cars, I have never had a CEL/MIL that was serious compared to what experience would tell you (e.g. leaking head gasket).

So you would have to wait until your vehicle goes into limp mode before you knew anything was wrong.

[Wilber]

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/us/honda-and-ford-are-fined-millions.html

This isn't new.

[bush_cheney2004]

So you would have to wait until your vehicle goes into limp mode before you knew anything was wrong.

Not if you wanted to run with a live session from the OBD2 port (connected to a laptop). For an autocross, just load the desired profile temporarily and reset when done. Most people with scan tools wait for an ECU or PCM code to come back before taking any action.

Not having a TDI, I don't know how much control an owner would have over engine & transmission settings. Many TDI owners preferred the direct shift, dual clutch gearbox (DSG) which offers flexible shifting options by design. Like I said, I was spooked away from the diesel because of the very expensive maintenance and fuel system contamination risk.

[On Guard for Thee]

Three lines of code is all it would have required the VW engineers to add to create the cheat.

[Shady]

Perfect time to buy their stock. Get it now while it drops, and reap the benefits after it recovers!