Volkswagen Fraud

[The_Squid]

Damn guvmint... leave poor VW alone!!

[Canada_First]

I'm waiting for it to fall more before I buy. I'm going to buy 10 000 euros worth to start with I think. Maybe more. We'll see.

[kimmy]

First, Volkswagen buyers benefitted because they recieved better gas mileage/power than they expected. I see no reason for a class-action suit from VW buyers.

There are a lot of people who now own cars that will not pass emission standards. How do you anticipate these owners are going to feel next time they get their cars re-certified? "I paid $25000 for a vehicle that I can't drive... but at least I got good gas mileage for a few years..."

-k

[TimG]

There are a lot of people who now own cars that will not pass emission standards. How do you anticipate these owners are going to feel next time they get their cars re-certified?

The EPA and others should give the owners of these vehicles a pass. It is not as if the arbitrary limits have some special meaning so retroactively revising these limits should not be an issue. If the cars are not allowed on the road then ire should fall on the regulatory agencies for being idiots.

[bush_cheney2004]

The cars are still legal to drive in the U.S. subject to any state level smog testing.

[msj]

The EPA and others should give the owners of these vehicles a pass. It is not as if the arbitrary limits have some special meaning so retroactively revising these limits should not be an issue. If the cars are not allowed on the road then ire should fall on the regulatory agencies for being idiots.

No, any cost should fall to VW who purposefully went about to defeat the regulations.

Another example of private enterprise doing dishonest business and the usual "blame the regulators" crowd wants to let the criminals off.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't know why regulators were fooled into thinking that VW Audi had found a magic "clean diesel" bullet for engine emissions (e.g. NOx). VW will have to recall the cars and reflash the ECU and/or add a very expensive catalytic process tank to each vehicle to preserve present torque and mileage.

Many VW diesel owners will just ignore the recalls if they don't have to pass an emissions test and don't care about resale value. Lots of people ignore auto recalls.

[TimG]

Another example of private enterprise doing dishonest business and the usual "blame the regulators" crowd wants to let the criminals off.

VW should pay heavy fines for the deception, however, adding to this cost by imposing hardship on innocent drivers because of an arbitrary regulation is not necessary. If the regulatory agencies do choose to impose hardship by refusing to offer waivers to people owning the affected vehicles then the agency is to blame.

That said, simply turning on the 'emissions testing mode' all of the time should resolve the issue from the VW perspective but it is not clear what the impact will be on drivers.

Edited September 24, 2015 by TimG

[bush_cheney2004]

...That said, simply turning on the 'emissions testing mode' all of the time should resolve the issue from the VW perspective but it is not clear what the impact will be on drivers.

The impact on the drivers would be reduced engine performance and economy. The class action lawsuits are already underway.

[Wilber]

There are a lot of people who now own cars that will not pass emission standards. How do you anticipate these owners are going to feel next time they get their cars re-certified? "I paid $25000 for a vehicle that I can't drive... but at least I got good gas mileage for a few years..."

-k

They will still be able to drive them but VW will have to come up with a fix for these cars or replace them. TDI's used to have one of best resale values of any car. That will be shot to pieces until this is resolved, if ever. If I were an owner, I would be more upset about seeing the value of my car plummet. or even made unsellable.

After I bought my Audi, I was kicking myself for not waiting a year until the TDI came out. Glad I didn't wait now. Still, it is the best car I have ever owned. Won't be tempted to trade it for a diesel version now.

[overthere]

What I can't figure out is why VW thought they would get away with it?

Did they really think that a third party agency would not look at the real world performance?

Seems to me that BMW and Mercedes Benz competitors should have known something was up too.

What is jaw dropping is the incompetence of management.

Management gambled that they would not be discovered, vs grabbing a nice chunk of market. VW has grown greatly in the last decade or two, and has a fat chunk of world share- second globally to Toyota and hot on their heels.

They have made a pile o' money as a result, so perhaps they did get away with it on balance.

Edited September 24, 2015 by overthere

[overthere]

They will still be able to drive them but VW will have to come up with a fix for these cars or replace them. TDI's used to have one of best resale values of any car. That will be shot to pieces until this is resolved, if ever. If I were an owner, I would be more upset about seeing the value of my car plummet. or even made unsellable.

After I bought my Audi, I was kicking myself for not waiting a year until the TDI came out. Glad I didn't wait now. Still, it is the best car I have ever owned. Won't be tempted to trade it for a diesel version now.

Why would it be unsellable?

How many drivers do you think would actually trade great fuel economy for saving Mommy Earth?

Judging by the poor sales of electrci vehicles the answer is: not very many.

Nah, VW will compensate owners with a few K each to offset potential loss of value, pay some big fines, and everybody carries on driving Calgary to Vancouver on a single tank.

[TimG]

Management gambled that they would not be discovered, vs grabbing a nice chunk of market.

It was a stupid gamble because the chance of getting caught is fairly high (there are third party outfits doing testing) and the consequences for the brand would be catastrophic.

[Wilber]

Why would it be unsellable?

How many drivers do you think would actually trade great fuel economy for saving Mommy Earth?

Judging by the poor sales of electrci vehicles the answer is: not very many.

Nah, VW will compensate owners with a few K each to offset potential loss of value, pay some big fines, and everybody carries on driving Calgary to Vancouver on a single tank.

I wouldn't buy one until I knew how much the fix is going to affect fuel economy and performance. Ultimately, these vehicles will have to be made to meet the emmision standards or taken off the road. When the recall comes, not complying won't be an option for owners. They will comply or their vehicles won't be licensed. Edited September 24, 2015 by Wilber

[overthere]

I wouldn't buy one until I knew how much the fix is going to affect fuel economy and performance. Ultimately, these vehicles will have to be made to meet the emmision standards or taken off the road. When the recall comes, not complying won't be an option for owners. They will comply or their vehicles won't be licensed.

I guarantee that aftermarket chipmakers are already developing/have developed plugin solutions to VW engine management issues related to emissions. here is one of many http://www.chipexpress.com/products/vw/

Seriously, take a look around you at what people drive. They are far more concerned with the cost of operation than emissions. Most owners will take the cash from VW, accept the chip modification from VW because they must(and how will they be forced?), then rechip back to their old standards of performance and economy. Unless you think human nature will somehow be magically transposed by this little buntoss?

Oh, and many of these chipsets on diesels can be taken in and out in seconds.

[cybercoma]

So my wife bought a Jetta TDI near the end of July. Not too impressed with the intentional deception; however, it's not like we even looked at the EnerGuide listing on the car. We bought it for fuel mileage and engine life since she travels a lot for work. So what we're concerned about now is if the recall has them reprogram all of these vehicles. Under that scenario, it's very likely that the cars will suffer performance and mileage reductions. Further still, the amount of AdBlue used may increase considerably and the stuff isn't cheap. Right now we're just waiting to see what happens.

[Derek 2.0]

I guarantee that aftermarket chipmakers are already developing/have developed plugin solutions to VW engine management issues related to emissions. here is one of many http://www.chipexpress.com/products/vw/

Without a doubt, it comes down to market capitalism........I've got the Banks performance package in my truck, that has increased HP and fuel mileage.... if there is a big enough market, you'll see companies like Banks Power, Xtreme Diesel and Bully Dog etc start putting out fixes for the Kraut cans, that would probably even boost performance over what VW has said they are suppose to have....or not have.

[dre]

There are a lot of people who now own cars that will not pass emission standards. How do you anticipate these owners are going to feel next time they get their cars re-certified? "I paid $25000 for a vehicle that I can't drive... but at least I got good gas mileage for a few years..."

-k

That can be fixed with a simple software patch, and VW is already recalling the vehicles to do that.

[Wilber]

That can be fixed with a simple software patch, and VW is already recalling the vehicles to do that.

If it is so simple, why did they cheat?

[dre]

If it is so simple, why did they cheat?

Well the fix while being simple reduces performance and fuel economy. They cheated because it allowed their cars to have better fuel economy and performance in real driving conditions when.

[Wilber]

Well the fix while being simple reduces performance and fuel economy. They cheated because it allowed their cars to have better fuel economy and performance in real driving conditions when.

Which of course will affect their value.

I'm not sure it will be quite that simple. The Passat uses urea injection to control NOX, the Golf and Jetta do not. The Passat may get away with upping the urea dose and a reprogram. If the Golf and Jetta can't be brought within standards without urea, retrofitting them will be a really big and expensive problem for VW.

I see that VW has taken the 3.0L V6 TDI off the NA market. It wasn't named as failing this test, so either they know it has also been messed with, or they just aren't sure whether it has or not.

[August1991]

After reading through this thread, my take is still that in the long run, VW/Audi will walk away with a reputation of disciplined, smart management. I still don't know how they managed to do this keeping so many people (who must have known) quiet. That's a remarkable organization.

Remember: No one died; this wasn't a safety issue.

I suspect the marketing people at VW looked at the downside (someone figures out the scam) and they said: "We still win."

The Passat uses urea injection to control NOX, the Golf and Jetta do not.

The urea injection is costly but it provides a solution for nitrous oxide (NOx) emissions.

Wilbur, my thinking is broader though. VW developed an ingenious way to circumvent the US EPA tests. Any car manufacturer could have used this VW method for any engine for any emission, NOx or other.

Edited September 25, 2015 by August1991

[Bryan]

I'm shocked that even their stock value went down as much as it did. They gave their customers better cars than the government was allowing them to. They should be rewarded.

[TimG]

I'm shocked that even their stock value went down as much as it did. They gave their customers better cars than the government was allowing them to. They should be rewarded.

Except, unlike CO2, NOX is a pollutant that does make cities less livable and the government regulations are justifiable. Edited September 25, 2015 by TimG

[TimG]

Remember: No one died; this wasn't a safety issue.

The class action lawsuits will bring in actuaries who will estimate VW's share of the people who got sick or died as a result of NOX pollution. The number of people who the government claims to have died from the deception will be much more than zero. Edited September 25, 2015 by TimG