August1991 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) First, Volkswagen buyers benefitted because they recieved better gas mileage/power than they expected. I see no reason for a class-action suit from VW buyers. Second, I see hefty fines imposed by environmental regulatory bodies (EPA). The fraud is on ordinary people around the world who suffered from bad air because of VW cars. Third, I suspect that other car companies have used the same software stunt, and not only for diesel engines. I suspect this fraud is much broader. Fourth, IMPV (in my partisan view), this is a failure of "government". The VW fraud was caught because the EPA went to an outside agency (the University of West Virginia) for verification. IOW (to be partisan), when Leftists claim that centralising all decisions in a single place saves money because there are economies of scale (eg. health care), think again. Even government bureaucrats need non-government checks. The freedom to choose is the best way to find the truth, even for government bureaucrats. Edited September 23, 2015 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 To be fair, West Virginia University (WVU) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) are also government. VW admitted to the defeat algorithm only after certification for sales of 2016 diesel models in the USA was threatened. Car and Driver describes the sequence of events thusly: http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/ My VW is not impacted...it's a gasser ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) To be fair, West Virginia University (WVU) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) are also government. VW admitted to the defeat algorithm only after certification for sales of 2016 diesel models in the USA was threatened. Car and Driver describes the sequence of events thusly: http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/ My VW is not impacted...it's a gasser ! BC, my opinion is based on the same article as your link. (I'm waiting for an event study of the VW share price to form a true opinion.) The University in West Virginia and CARB are separate from the EPA: As some of us in Canada say, a federal state is the best protection of individual freedom. As a lone Canadian, I prefer a Harper facing a Wynne, a Marois and a Notley. Edited September 23, 2015 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) What I can't figure out is why VW thought they would get away with it? Did they really think that a third party agency would not look at the real world performance? Seems to me that BMW and Mercedes Benz competitors should have known something was up too. What is jaw dropping is the incompetence of management. Edited September 23, 2015 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 BC, my opinion is based on the same article as your link. (I'm waiting for an event study of the VW share price to form a true opinion.) The University in West Virginia and CARB are separate from the EPA: As some of us in Canada say, a federal state is the best protection of individual freedom. Yes, separate from the EPA but still funded by government. The EPA is like any other U.S. agency, contracting lots of work out to public and private entities. Also, the EPA and CARB were instrumental in forcing emissions standards down the throats of automotive manfacturers, which resulted in software/firmware managed engine controls systems by onboard ECUs with data standards (e.g. OBD2....that little I/O port on the dashboard). Anyone who knows the emissions game from the late 1970's is very much aware of direct methods to beat the required government testing schemes with fuel related, mechanical, and/or electronic tricks. Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) What I can't figure out is why VW thought they would get away with it? It was ingenious. If I were in marketing, I would have approved this. [The EPA did its tests in a very predictable pattern: drive 20 km/h for 5 minutes then brake. Accelerate to 60 km/h then cruise for 20 seconds... ] It was easy to program the engine to detect the EPA pattern and then shut down the emissions systems to bolster power and reduce fuel consumption. IMHO, I wonder how VW management kept all this secret. I reckon that VW works that way: strict, top-down. This may be a marketing advantage in the future. ===== No VW driver died in a car crash as a result of this fraud. This is not about faulty brakes. Rather, VW car buyers got a car better than expected. If anything, we should sue them. The fraud is on the rest of us: people around the world who breathe air. Edited September 23, 2015 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 ...No VW driver died in a car crash as a result of this fraud. This is not about faulty brakes. Rather, VW car buyers got a car better than expected. If anything, we should sue them. The fraud is on the rest of us: people around the world who breathe air. "Clean Diesel" was always a bit of a fraud. Since you travel to Europe, I am sure your nose has detected as much. It is a simple matter to buy aftermarket chips, tuner modules, and custom setpoint programmers for VW and many other diesel engines to "enhance" performance. Some people just return to the stock settings for smog testing each year just to pass the tests and get their sticker. http://www.parleysdieselperformance.com/t/categories/tuners Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) It was ingenious. If I were in marketing, I would have approved this.It was incredibly stupid and naive and has destroyed VW shareholder value. Edited September 23, 2015 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) I tried to buy some VW stock today on the continued bad news, but was thwarted by my online broker for OTC equities. Need to get to the German exchange on Wednesday. Volkswagen AG is presently the world's largest carmaker by revenue....they will take a hit over this. Edited September 23, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Yes, separate from the EPA but still funded by government. " ... funded by government." Which "government", bc? We in Canada live in a world of many "government" bureaucracies/agencies. All things considered, I prefer to live in a regime where I can choose my government bureaucrat, or even where my government bureaucrat can choose among other bureaucrats for an outside opinion. Even bureaucrats should be free to choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 " ... funded by government." Which "government", bc? We in Canada live in a world of many "government" bureaucracies/agencies. WVU is a public land grant university in Morgantown. It is part of the state's university and college system with lots of taxpayer funding. It is controlled by "government". I don't live in Canada. All things considered, I prefer to live in a regime where I can choose my government bureaucrat, or even where my government bureaucrat can choose among other bureaucrats for an outside opinion. Even bureaucrats should be free to choose. They make lots of choices...some good...some bad....but still in the framework of "government". Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) "Clean Diesel" was always a bit of a fraud. Since you travel to Europe, I am sure your nose has detected as much. The more surprising fact is that diesel (gasoil) in Europe is so much cheaper than in North America. In North America, the diesel price per litre is typically higher than gasoline. In Europe, diesel is about 30% cheaper than gasoline. When I have asked about this, I was told that it had to do with trucks and winter. Dunno. This scandal has made me rethink why other car companies have been reticent to use diesel engines in North America. (Diesel engines are common in Europe.) Is it more complicated/risky to scam the regulatory agency with a diesel engine? Edited September 23, 2015 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) The more surprising fact is that diesel (gasoil) in Europe is so much cheaper than in North America. In North America, the diesel price per litre is typically higher than gasoline. In Europe, diesel is about 30% cheaper than gasoline. When I have asked about this, I was told that it had to do with trucks and winter. Dunno. This scandal has made me rethink why other car companies have been reticent to use diesel engines in North America. (Diesel engines are common in Europe.) Is it more complicated/risky to scam the regulatory agency with a diesel engine? Gasoline and diesel fuels are taxed differently in Europe compared to the U.S., where diesel has higher taxes. Also, the emissions control systems can more easily deal with the, until recently, lower sulfur content in EU diesel fuel. U.S. and Canada had much higher sulfur content which would foul emissions controls. In general, turbocharged diesel engines are far more expensive to build and maintain/repair than gasoline engines. One of the reasons I favoured the gas powered VW over the TDI diesel was the maintenance costs, especially in the case of fuel system contamination. The U.S. went through the passenger car diesel phase back in the 1970's during the so called 'oil crisis', and they did not fair well. Edited September 23, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) It was incredibly stupid and naive and has destroyed VW shareholder value. TimG, no VW driver/owner died as a direct result of this fraud. If anything, they benefitted: VW owners got good mileage. Let's see what happens, in the long run, to VW shareholder value. Edited September 23, 2015 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I tried to buy some VW stock today on the continued bad news, but was thwarted by my online broker for OTC equities. Need to get to the German exchange on Wednesday. Volkswagen AG is presently the world's largest carmaker by revenue....they will take a hit over this. That was my first thought as well: there's some money to be made here, better buy that stock before it recovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 So from what i can parse from the articles being written, VW gave their customers a better value than they were legally allowed to. Makes me want to go out and buy one of those cars too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 That was my first thought as well: there's some money to be made here, better buy that stock before it recovers. I just placed a limit order for some VLKAY shares. Will see if it fills at market open. Not sure why VW AG is traded as OTC/Pink Slip in the U.S. Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 So from what i can parse from the articles being written, VW gave their customers a better value than they were legally allowed to. Makes me want to go out and buy one of those cars too. Right...VW basically provided emissions bypass tuning as standard equipment. Other folks would have to buy expensive aftermarket chips or programmers to achieve similar results, but usually for more horsepower/torque instead of gas mileage. The mileage advertising from VW for their TDI diesel powered cars seemed unrealistic to me ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 That was my first thought as well: there's some money to be made here, better buy that stock before it recovers. Ah we know what they say about fools and their money. The lawsuits haven't even begun. Buy away though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go.Leafs Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I never can rationalize nor condone consumer fraud. Volkswagen should ordered to donate $10 million to the Salvation Army or get out of a Province (say Ontario) for a year. This is the only way to get their attention and avoid similar scams in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 $10 million? They have set aside almost $7 billion for the recall alone. Fines, law suits and loss of business will be on top of that. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada_First Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Tdi are best. I don't care about pollution. China and India are tge real polluters. Until they do something what our tiny country does is insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 TimG, no VW driver/owner died as a direct result of this fraud. If anything, they benefitted: VW owners got good mileage. Let's see what happens, in the long run, to VW shareholder value. Are you kidding? This has cost the company billions in stock value already. The company owners (shareholders) have lost almost forty percent of their stock value. On top of that we have the likelihood of multi-billion dollar fines, plus lawsuits, plus the cost of recalling all those millions of cars and changing out the software, plus the possible need to compensate owners who can't drive them because they emit an illegal amount of pollutants, plus the incredible damage to VW's reputation which is going to hammer future sales going forward. If I had owned this stock I would want whoever was responsible lynched. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I am now the proud owner of Volkswagen AG stock. Buy on bad news...sell on good. Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 I am now the proud owner of Volkswagen AG stock. Buy on bad news...sell on good. Hopefully, for you, you are looking long, long , looooooong term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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