Volkswagen Fraud

[bush_cheney2004]

Great quote from over at the VW TDI Club forum.

"VW is the Lance Armstrong of automotive manufacturers."

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448053

[August1991]

The class action lawsuits will bring in actuaries who will estimate VW's share of the people who got sick or died as a result of NOX pollution. The number of people who the government claims to have died from the deception will be much more than zero.

Agreed. The fraud is on the rest of us. Except: Does the US EPA accurately represent our interests?

[bush_cheney2004]

Agreed. The fraud is on the rest of us. Except: Does the US EPA accurately represent our interests?

Well...no...certainly not in foreign jurisdictions or even U.S. state level emissions regimens, which vary widely from none to strict compliance enforcement. The EPA certifies model years for import and sale, just like other federal agencies do for safety requirements, crash worthiness, etc. which also varies nation to nation. How many lives are mandatory daytime running lights (DRL) worth in Canada ?

[August1991]

The EPA certifies model years for import and sale, just like other federal agencies do for safety requirements, crash worthiness, etc. which also varies nation to nation. How many lives are mandatory daytime running lights (DRL) worth in Canada ?

"The EPA certifies... "

"Lance Armstrong... "

... giggle ...

As your cite stated, VW is the Lance Armstrong of the auto industry and that means the EPA is what?

Edited September 25, 2015 by August1991

[Bryan]

How many lives are mandatory daytime running lights (DRL) worth in Canada ?

US cars don't have DRL?

[bush_cheney2004]

US cars don't have DRL?

DRLs are voluntary for cars and light trucks sold in the U.S. (U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration). Several manufacturers provide them as standard equipment, including VW Audi Group. They don't save enough lives for NHTSA...maybe they do in Canada and Europe.

[bush_cheney2004]

As your cite stated, VW is the Lance Armstrong of the auto industry and that means the EPA is what?

The EPA is a federal agency responsible for lots of stuff besides polluting VW diesels. The WVU findings were reported at a seminar in 2014, so the EPA followed up on it. What was Environment Canada doing ?

[Wilber]

The class action lawsuits will bring in actuaries who will estimate VW's share of the people who got sick or died as a result of NOX pollution. The number of people who the government claims to have died from the deception will be much more than zero.

The burning of all types of fossil fuels only accounts for about 10% of global human NOX emissions, agriculture is by far the largest contributor. Any estimate of how many deaths VW is responsible for will be pulled from someones ass.

With less than 10% coming from vehicles, one wonders why it is such a big deal for the EPA. Still, they broke the rules.

[Wilber]

DRLs are voluntary for cars and light trucks sold in the U.S. (U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration). Several manufacturers provide them as standard equipment, including VW Audi Group. They don't save enough lives for NHTSA...maybe they do in Canada and Europe.

Probably a lot more lives saved by DRL's in Canada than deaths caused by VW diesel NOX emissions in North America. DRL's have been mandatory in Canada since 1990.

[Bryan]

Which of course will affect their value.

Probably not by much. If anything, this is going to cause a run on used TDIs with enthusiasts looking to get one of the "factory chipped" models. A lot of people are hoping the pricing will fall, so many that they'll start to drive the price back up.

[TimG]

Any estimate of how many deaths VW is responsible for will be pulled from someones ass.

I agree but you can bet these fictions will be treated as fact by many looking to make a buck.

[Wilber]

I agree but you can bet these fictions will be treated as fact by many looking to make a buck.

I can see VW fighting that one for years. Unless you can prove that your own personal health was effected by their emissions, you don't have much of a case. Just look at the battles smokers have had with tobacco companies where the evidence was quite clear.

[TimG]

I can see VW fighting that one for years. Unless you can prove that your own personal health was effected by their emissions, you don't have much of a case. Just look at the battles smokers have had with tobacco companies where the evidence was quite clear.

A look at the reputations of tobacco companies as a result of their legal arguments. VW is screwed no matter what. If they fight the ridiculous claims they will be branded as an evil corporation trying to evade legal responsibility. If they accept them, damages will be assessed based on these fictional deaths. Edited September 25, 2015 by TimG

[Wilber]

A look at the reputations of tobacco companies as a result of their legal arguments. VW is screwed no matter what. If they fight the ridiculous claims they will be branded as an evil corporation trying to evade legal responsibility. If they accept them, damages will be assessed based on these fictional deaths.

Why would you accept responsibility for something no one can demonstrate actually happened and in fact, probably didn't. Deaths caused by tobacco use were easily proved. The number of deaths caused by VW diesel NOX emissions, if any, can not be estimated. In fact, aside from transport trucks, the majority of diesels sold in North America are 3/4T and 1T trucks which all have GVWR's of over 8500 lbs and are not subject to the same emission standards as light trucks and passenger cars. All vehicles emit NOX, all industries that burn fossil fuels emit NOX. Agriculture is responsible for 67% of NOX emissions. How on earth could anyone prove that their medical problems were caused specifically by VW diesels.

[Wilber]

Probably not by much. If anything, this is going to cause a run on used TDIs with enthusiasts looking to get one of the "factory chipped" models. A lot of people are hoping the pricing will fall, so many that they'll start to drive the price back up.

When the recall comes out, it won't be optional. If you own one of these vehicles, you will have to get the recall done or you won't be able to license it.

[Bryan]

When the recall comes out, it won't be optional. If you own one of these vehicles, you will have to get the recall done or you won't be able to license it.

Most people ignore recalls. Cars still get licensed. Besides that, the ones who want those TDIs are people would just just get the cars reset to factory after they get it back from recall.

[Wilber]

Most people ignore recalls. Cars still get licensed. Besides that, the ones who want those TDIs are people would just just get the cars reset to factory after they get it back from recall.

The government is not going to let these vehicles stay on the road violating emission standards when there is a recall to fix them. They will not license them and you won't be able to sell one until it is done. People defeat emission controls all the time but it is not legal and it is not the same as a manufacturer selling new cars that don't comply with the law.

BTW, it is now illegal for diesel programer manufacturers to sell programers that defeat the check engine light with any part of the emission control system deactivated.

[dre]

I wonder what the NET result of this really is... Yes these vehicles emmitted more NOX than allowed. But as a result of the programming they also burned a lot less fuel which would have meant less pollution in other parts of the fuel supply cycle. Less mining, less refining, less trucking fuel across the country, etc etc.

Maybe a vehicle that has super good fuel economy should have less stringent standards for direct emissions?

[eyeball]

No, any cost should fall to VW who purposefully went about to defeat the regulations.

Another example of private enterprise doing dishonest business and the usual "blame the regulators" crowd wants to let the criminals off.

I can see a "too big to fail" sentiment building under VW if the fallout from it starts to bite Germany, the Eurozone and ultimately the global economy like some financial crisis.

[eyeball]

I wonder what the NET result of this really is... Yes these vehicles emmitted more NOX than allowed. But as a result of the programming they also burned a lot less fuel which would have meant less pollution in other parts of the fuel supply cycle. Less mining, less refining, less trucking fuel across the country, etc etc.

Maybe a vehicle that has super good fuel economy should have less stringent standards for direct emissions?

Deceit is good. Ignorance is bliss.

That would make a fitting bumper-sticker on a VW.

[dre]

I can see a "too big to fail" sentiment building under VW if the fallout from it starts to bite Germany, the Eurozone and ultimately the global economy like some financial crisis.

I agree theres no way this company will be allowed to fall. Speculators will drive the stock price back up, and governments will go easier on them than people are expecting.

Not only that but hot middle aged milfs need jettas to drive around in with small dogs on their laps.

Edited September 25, 2015 by dre

[eyeball]

I'm pretty serious about a similar sentiment also building for blissful wilful ignorance. I often feel like I'm in the movie Brazil.

[overthere]

The government is not going to let these vehicles stay on the road violating emission standards when there is a recall to fix them. They will not license them and you won't be able to sell one until it is done. People defeat emission controls all the time but it is not legal and it is not the same as a manufacturer selling new cars that don't comply with the law.

BTW, it is now illegal for diesel programer manufacturers to sell programers that defeat the check engine light with any part of the emission control system deactivated.

You are ignoring the simple fact that it will be nothing at all to mechanically defeat the VW 'fix'. VW owners won't be ignoring that reality.

Rechipping vehciles usually involves simply inserting a device in the easily accessible harness under the hood. If the govt requires ongoing or annual testing, you just take it out of the harness. It is that simple. Many thousands of vehicles of all brands already have this setup.

The check engine light? Must be a crappy chipset that causes any of that to happen.

[eyeball]

Too bad there wasn't a little check manufacturer's veracity light...of course most people would probably just ignore that too.

[bush_cheney2004]

When the recall comes out, it won't be optional. If you own one of these vehicles, you will have to get the recall done or you won't be able to license it.

Not in the U.S., which has a patchwork of state level emissions standards and compliance checks. Many cars and light trucks are licensed with failed pollution controls, many purposely defeated by vehicle owners themselves. There are also waivers granted in states that have testing.