TimG Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) My mistake. As I said, I guess I'm just really tired of the BS of this current government. You're right, I don't expect the next to be much better no matter the party. You've never seen me state much if any support for any of our political parties on MLW. I don't want to make this a partisan bash-fest. We all need to demand better of all parties, all politicians.Fair point then. They it is also worth examining why things have evolved the way the have. Personally, I think it is Darwinian evolution. i.e. voters only reward parties that exercise a tight control over the message. Look back to the days before Harper when the Conservatives would lose elections because some candidate said something ridiculous and the media tarred the entire party with that stupidity. If we had different voters who could understand the difference between individual MPs and government policy then we would get parties that allowed MPs to speak their minds. But we don't have those voters and I don't see that changing. The end result is winning parties will always be those parties that muzzle MPs. IOW: we get the politicians we deserve. Coyne touches on the same theme: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/andrew-coyne-bozo-eruptions-or-no-let-voters-decide-if-candidates-are-idiots Edited September 13, 2015 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 "Humanity is corrupt" is a lame cop-out excuse. Throw your hands up then, do nothing, do not demand better, live with the status quo. Frankly, that's "loser talk". We can do better, we just don't demand it. It is a fact that politicians will do anything we ask of them, because if they don't they will lose their jobs. We can always do better for a while, but there's a reason that most governments need to go after a time. It's human nature. We've been 'doing better' most of our lives, but human nature still persists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 This is one of my points. It shouldn't be a race to the bottom. And it's a very valid point. Hopefully whoever takes over from Harper will be able to reinvigorate the political landscape of this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 I don't think it's a race to the bottom, I just think that sometimes we expect too much from other human beings. I think sometimes we should expect more. Again, I'm not demanding perfection, or even close to it. How about our politicians man the heck up and act more like responsible people who are entrusted to represent our country and defend our democracy instead of acting like slimy weasels all the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Again, I'm not demanding perfection, or even close to it. How about our politicians man the heck up and act more like responsible people who are entrusted to represent our country and defend our democracy instead of acting like slimy weasels all the time? That's what we create though. Paul Martin was probably the most honest PM we've had in a very long time. Look what that got him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 We can always do better for a while, but there's a reason that most governments need to go after a time. It's human nature. We've been 'doing better' most of our lives, but human nature still persists. Oh I completely agree. The longer you stay in power you generally become more arrogant, complacent, and entitled etc. It's natural when you start to think you're invincible. But some are more corruptible than others I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Fair point then. They it is also worth examining why things have evolved the way the have. Personally, I think it is Darwinian evolution. i.e. voters only reward parties that exercise a tight control over the message. Look back to the days before Harper when the Conservatives would lose elections because some candidate said something ridiculous and the media tarred the entire party with that stupidity. If we had different voters who could understand the difference between individual MPs and government policy then we would get parties that allowed MPs to speak their minds. But we don't have those voters and I don't see that changing. The end result is winning parties will always be those parties that muzzle MPs. IOW: we get the politicians we deserve. I agree. Politicians try to behave in ways that work and that they think will get them elected and re-elected. It's likely more our fault than it is theirs. They tell us what they think we want to hear. Thanks for making me realize I was too anti-Harper/CPC in my OP. I apologize to everyone for not making my OP more of a general criticism of politicians, although I tried a bit to stay fair. Edited September 13, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 That's what we create though. Paul Martin was probably the most honest PM we've had in a very long time. Look what that got him. Well, Martin just got caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. Chretien got out before poop hit the fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Well, Martin just got caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. He could have swept it under the rug. Instead, he held an inquiry. It didn't go well for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Perhaps because I have some perspective? To believe you've thought of something that no one else ever has is naive 99.9% of the time. You don't have a better idea. Corrupt leaders should always be tossed. Don't worry though, the next leader will almost always become corrupt (especially by your standards) too, given enough time. There are no incorruptible people. If you think you're one of them, you just haven't been in the right situation yet. Sure. Let's all just give up. Everyone's corrupt and out system is as good as it can ever be. It's funny. Nobody who's met me in real life has accused me of being naive. No matter, though. I'd much rather be naive and optimistic than cynical and pessimistic. Or, in the words of another idealist: You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope one day you'll join us... Everyone is corruptible but not everyone is corrupt. Good systems encourage good behavior and reveal bad behavior. Weak systems allow the rot to hide and spread unseen. We have a weak system. Edited September 13, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Since Harper has had the most time in the big chair to allow himself a nice collection of friends with criminal charges why not try something new? Then kick out the new guy after 4 years and repeat for another election cycle or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 When the Harper Haters start treating $3 million improperly spent tax dollars in the same way as $90,000 dollars that have already been paid back, I'll start to take them seriously. Until then, they're just political hacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 The ideal politician should be a person of eminent stature who seeks public office to serve the nation. To get there, he must spend $50,000 to $100,000 to get nominated, then quit work for one or two years to campaign to get a job that pays a quarter of his previous salary. While campaigning and then, if successful, serving, every moment of your professional and personal life, and your family members' lives, are hung out for public viewing after having been twisted into half truths and out right lies. Everyone thinks they are your boss and you are viewed as a thief and a liar. You work 16 hours a day, seven days a week without thanks from the people you serve. You visit a campus or community function and who picks up the tab for coffee and donuts? You do. You are expected to buy a dozen raffle tickets while you listen to people call you names. You have an expense account that covers a tenth of your expenses if you are careful. In the end, you get sick of it, or your constituents get sick of you, you get a pension. It won't come close to making up what you have sacrificed in the service of your neighbours. I've known a dozen cabinet ministers and a couple of dozen backbenchers. I've danced with Flora MacDonald, sipped beer with George Hees and had Maureen McTeer cheer me up after Joe Clark lost to Brian M. Most of our politicians are eminent people of stature who serve us, not for reward, but because it is the right thing to do. It is time to show some gratitude and cut them some slack. If we don't, we won't be able to recruit good honest and capable people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Show the door by you? Don't think so. Where is Chris Alexander do you suppose? Under the same bus as Joe Oliver maybe? Harper's record on immigration is what it is. His vapid reaction to the Syrian crisis is just more of the same. When he saw how badly it was coming back to bite him in the polls, he scrambled to unfurl a hundred million bucks to try to pave over his failure. Ain't gonna wash I'm afraid. You have some evidence his refugee stance has hurt him at the polls? As far as I know the only polls on the subject show Canadians deeply divided, but of the three party leaders stances they seem to prefer Harper's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 It's very likely past your bed time. Leave the rest of it to us adult. You think you're the adult!? LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 That's what we create though. Paul Martin was probably the most honest PM we've had in a very long time. Look what that got him. He was a weasel. I have no idea where you get he was honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Well, Martin just got caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. Chretien got out before poop hit the fan. You seriously think Martin didn't know about those kickbacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 He could have swept it under the rug. Instead, he held an inquiry. It didn't go well for him. He CANCELLED the parliamentary inquiry because he was afraid he couldn't control it. He launched another inquiry which wasn't allowed to find any criminal wrongdoing and was strictly limited in where it could look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 You have some evidence his refugee stance has hurt him at the polls? As far as I know the only polls on the subject show Canadians deeply divided, but of the three party leaders stances they seem to prefer Harper's It's of course hard to point out exactly what all has led Harper to be in third place in the polls, but if you happened to hear Chris Alexander stumble so badly on the Syrian issue, on at least 3 separate occasions, and how now you see he has disappeared completely from the public view, tells you something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 He CANCELLED the parliamentary inquiry because he was afraid he couldn't control it. He launched another inquiry which wasn't allowed to find any criminal wrongdoing and was strictly limited in where it could look. The federal courts exonerated Chretien. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 You have some evidence his refugee stance has hurt him at the polls? As far as I know the only polls on the subject show Canadians deeply divided, but of the three party leaders stances they seem to prefer Harper's Are you saying Harper hasn't changed his position on the refugee issue in response to public opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) When the Harper Haters start treating $3 million improperly spent tax dollars in the same way as $90,000 dollars that have already been paid back, I'll start to take them seriously. Until then, they're just political hacks. Did anything ever come of that $3.1 billion Harper lost? Edited September 13, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 You seriously think Martin didn't know about those kickbacks? Just like Harper is unaware of everything going on around him right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 Did anything ever come of that $3.1 billion Harper lost? There was no $3 billion that Harper "lost". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted September 13, 2015 Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 There was no $3 billion that Harper "lost". http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/the-missing-3-1-billion-no-one-is-asking-about/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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