The cost of Migrants

[CITIZEN_2015]

I say what I said in other thread. It should be the oil rich Arab states to take these refugees where they speak the same language and score high on adoptability and culture rather than Europe who is struggling with poor economy. These Arab sheiks sitting on oil wealth must help their brothers the most.

[Scotty]

People are fleeing their counties because it is no longer safe to live there.

It's perfectly safe in Turkey.

Canada has our airplanes dropping bombs on the areas these people are coming from.

No it does not.

If Canada is not partially responsible for their displacement, then who is?

Why is it you paternalistic white liberals always look for White people to blame whenever something goes wrong?

Before the West (including Canada) decided to invade the Middle East there were no refugees from Afghanistan, Gaza, Iraq, Syria, Libya et al. Before the West (including Canada) decided to invade the Middle East there was no ISIS.

You are conveniently forgetting the wars which rampaged through Afghanistan and Iraq before any invasions. And you're blaming Gaza on us too? As well as the Arab Spring? That was our fault? You have a weird memory which seems to have been spawned by an overactive guilt complex.

I wonder what caused this homelessness in the Middle East?

Not Arabs, for sure. We can't hold them responsible for what they do. We must find some White people to blame.

[Big Guy]

...

Not Arabs, for sure. We can't hold them responsible for what they do. We must find some White people to blame.

Sorry - I do not respond to parsed statements.

[Scotty]

I had a good idea what to expect before I even read the OP! A humanitarian disaster...mostly caused by America and its western allies + useful Arab allies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, share most of the culpability

That's garbage. Hussien was bombing and killing people by the truckload before we ever got involved. The Taliban was in constant war with the northern warlords, and Syria slaughtered thousands every time there was a hint of defiance. We didn't start the Arab Spring, nor did we start the current rebellion in Syria. And it was Iran and Al Quaeda who kept Iraq from being put back together properly, not us.

[Scotty]

Sorry - I do not respond to parsed statements.

Seems to me you don't respond to logic either.

[Big Guy]

Seems to me you don't respond to logic either.

Thanks for your time. Get back to me when you want a serious discussion. Why am I being reminded of a duck in swans clothing?

Edited September 3, 2015 by Big Guy

[Army Guy]

Yes, look at this verdant oasis.

You suggested they were "living quite comfortably," so I feel the actual living conditions is quite relevant, otherwise, why did you mention it?

It's closer to 4 million and those are of course only those registered by the UN. As for the rest: cite?

And if the poverty they are fleeing is a result of the threat of death and persecution? It's not so black and white.

I did'nt see any barrel bombs being dropped, they are getting feed, have water, so the basics are being looked after....or are you suggesting they are not.

[eyeball]

Let's not lose track of what the end game is supposed to be: it's to provide a safe haven until such time as the dangers in their own country have been mitigated - so they can return home. Two or three years from now, there should be no bleeding heart stories about families being uprooted and forced to return home - only a complete and heartfelt thanks for saving them from the imminent danger that cased them to flee in the first place.

You seriously imagine the cause of this will be resolved in two or three years? You've got to be kidding.

[eyeball]

Imagine what a hundred years of infiltration by a naturally insular religion, the establishment of thousands of Mosques, and the internal agitation caused by the extremists - just imagine what that will do. It's the long game......and it's scary.

What did you expect after a hundred years of vigorously agitating the ME region from the outside? Care-bears and unicorns?

[Bonam]

What did you expect after a hundred years of vigorously agitating the ME region from the outside? Care-bears and unicorns?

100 years? The middle east has been the front for the clash of civilizations for millenia, for as long as history has been recorded and likely before then too. Nothing has changed in that regard, except now one side, instead of walling its cities, invites everyone into them with open arms.

[Black Dog]

100 years? The middle east has been the front for the clash of civilizations for millenia, for as long as history has been recorded and likely before then too. Nothing has changed in that regard, except now one side, instead of walling its cities, invites everyone into them with open arms.

Total hyperbole.

[scribblet]

I did'nt see any barrel bombs being dropped, they are getting feed, have water, so the basics are being looked after....or are you suggesting they are not.

Turkey is a designated safe country and they are being fed/housed. The family of the child who died so tragically would not have qualified for refugee status anyway.

I haven't heard any of the opposition leaders tell us how we should take in the tens of thousands immediately. They have not told us if they would drop safeguards and requirements to fast track them, or how, logistically they would get them here. There is no costing to this as far as I know but how likely is it that they would get work and would our infrastructure including our health system be able to cope with a mass influx if migrants, in fact, it is the largest migration crisis in recent history. I see a lot of hyperbole over this but the only way to solve this is to somehow bring about peace and stability to that region. The failed Arab spring and ISIS are a good part of the problem.

The recent lie started and perpetuated by the press should expose the nature of the media and opposition parties as to what they are prepared to do to bring down a gov't. It is sickening and abhorrent how this tragedy has been used to lie and perpetuate a myth.

[Black Dog]

Turkey is a designated safe country and they are being fed/housed. The family of the child who died so tragically would not have qualified for refugee status anyway.

I haven't heard any of the opposition leaders tell us how we should take in the tens of thousands immediately. They have not told us if they would drop safeguards and requirements to fast track them, or how, logistically they would get them here. There is no costing to this as far as I know but how likely is it that they would get work and would our infrastructure including our health system be able to cope with a mass influx if migrants, in fact, it is the largest migration crisis in recent history. I see a lot of hyperbole over this but the only way to solve this is to somehow bring about peace and stability to that region. The failed Arab spring and ISIS are a good part of the problem.

The recent lie started and perpetuated by the press should expose the nature of the media and opposition parties as to what they are prepared to do to bring down a gov't. It is sickening and abhorrent how this tragedy has been used to lie and perpetuate a myth.

I haven't heard much from government either beyond some platitudes about fighting ISIS (which isn't really the problem and which Canada isn't doing anything of note about anyway). So if you're castigating the opposition for not having a fully costed and fleshed out plan, the same should apply to the party in power.

Oh and the "mass influx of refugees" you're talking about is, at most, 25,000, or about half the capacity of SkyDome. Are you telling me we're so hard up here that we can't possible add 25,000 people? If that's the case, Harper's stewardship of the country has been worse than anyone could imagine!

[scribblet]

I haven't heard much from government either beyond some platitudes about fighting ISIS (which isn't really the problem and which Canada isn't doing anything of note about anyway). So if you're castigating the opposition for not having a fully costed and fleshed out plan, the same should apply to the party in power.

Oh and the "mass influx of refugees" you're talking about is, at most, 25,000, or about half the capacity of SkyDome. Are you telling me we're so hard up here that we can't possible add 25,000 people? If that's the case, Harper's stewardship of the country has been worse than anyone could imagine!

Oh sure... but apart from that hyperbole, 25,000 people within a short span of time is a lot for us to sustain indefinitely. The gov't has told us what it's doing and how, the opposition wants more in a short time frame, they also have made it clear they would like to bring in more than 25,000. If this is what they want they should campaign on it then tell us how they will do it.

[kimmy]

25,000 doesn't sound so bad, I guess. Will they be spread out across the country, or will they all gravitate to a handful of neighborhoods in the GTA, GVA, and a couple of other major centers?

The idea of bringing in a bunch of religious conservatives straight out of the third world doesn't sit well with me regardless of the circumstances. It seems pretty much counterproductive to the ideas of social progress that I support. If it's just 25000 and they're sufficiently diluted I guess we can handle it. If I was in Germany the idea of 800,000 of these people suddenly landing in my midst would scare the crap out of me.

-k

[Civis Romanus sum]

Again: they may be out of immediate danger, but it's not sustainable for them or the host countries.

It would certainly be sustainable if we helped the host countries with financial aid. And it would be more sustainable still if those host countries were willing to accept these people into their cities and let them live and work there, the way western nations do.

Let's back it up: what do the Palestinians (most of whom live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza) have to do with anything?

You provided raw numbers for how many refugees were in certain countries. I pointed out those numbers exceeded the numbers of Syrian refugees the UN has put out, and that much of those raw numbers were because of other refugees, notably Palestinians.

But they (at least large numbers of them) are fleeing death and torture. And even if there was some meaningful distinction, it does change the facts on the ground.

If they're already in a safe third country such as Turkey or Egypt then they're economic migrants, and are actually risking death by crossing to Europe. The more of them we accept, the more of them will come, and the more will die along the way. If you've been watching and reading the coverage you might note how many are trying to head for Sweden. Why? Sweden would seem to be a little known country most would know nothing about. But Sweden has promised to take all Syrian refugees and grant them citizenship. Who wouldn't rather be a citizen of Sweden than of Syria!? War or no war. By making that generous offer the Swedes are actually encouraging people to risk their lives to get to Europe.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Civis Romanus sum

[Civis Romanus sum]

25,000 doesn't sound so bad, I guess. Will they be spread out across the country, or will they all gravitate to a handful of neighborhoods in the GTA, GVA, and a couple of other major centers?

I doubt you'll see a lot of them in Halifax or Newfoundland, nor will they be heading to the Yukon or Quebec City. They'll be going to Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver and Edmonton, most likely.

The idea of bringing in a bunch of religious conservatives straight out of the third world doesn't sit well with me regardless of the circumstances. It seems pretty much counterproductive to the ideas of social progress that I support.

I have three daughters, and I can tell you that I don't want more tens of thousands of Muslims coming to Canada. We already bring tens of thousands every year, and their attitudes towards women are extremely troubling. Nor have I seen much sign their children, who grow up here, diverge much from those attitudes.

[scribblet]

25,000 doesn't sound so bad, I guess. Will they be spread out across the country, or will they all gravitate to a handful of neighborhoods in the GTA, GVA, and a couple of other major centers?

The idea of bringing in a bunch of religious conservatives straight out of the third world doesn't sit well with me regardless of the circumstances. It seems pretty much counterproductive to the ideas of social progress that I support. If it's just 25000 and they're sufficiently diluted I guess we can handle it. If I was in Germany the idea of 800,000 of these people suddenly landing in my midst would scare the crap out of me.

-k

Which is why there are protests. They are afraid and have seen what is allready happening in the U.K., Sweden and other countries. Merkel et al are saying it's racism, maybe some of it is but IMO see it the way you put it.

If 25,000 are spread around they could be assimilated but it's likely most will end up in Vancouver or Toronto.

[Army Guy]

I think those pictures have made Canadians forget all that, instead of making a well thought out decision they are jumping at the heart strings which may bite them in the ass later.....I like the British response, not taking any of those already in safe zones, instead going directly to those countries which have set up camps.....in an effort of trying to keep them from making those deals with the smugglers to get them into europe.... to do the screening there makes sense....

[Scotty]

The idea of bringing in a bunch of religious conservatives straight out of the third world doesn't sit well with me regardless of the circumstances.

-k

Don't you know that Arabs love blondes?

[cybercoma]

I think those pictures have made Canadians forget all that, instead of making a well thought out decision they are jumping at the heart strings which may bite them in the ass later....

It's been two years that the government has been making promises about Syrian refugees. This didn't just start all of a sudden this week.

[socialist]

But it is politicizing when the leaders of the opposition do not want to reveal the real facts,namely that the boy's family had not applied for refugee status in Canada and furthermore, that Canada indeed has done a lot for refugees from the world over.

So, yes, Tom and Justin HAVE politicized the issue. If you cannot see that then you are readily misled.

[WIP]

That's garbage. Hussien was bombing and killing people by the truckload before we ever got involved. The Taliban was in constant war with the northern warlords, and Syria slaughtered thousands every time there was a hint of defiance. We didn't start the Arab Spring, nor did we start the current rebellion in Syria. And it was Iran and Al Quaeda who kept Iraq from being put back together properly, not us.

Define involved? Because the US and Israel have been involved on a covert level in Syria for decades. Ten years ago, the US didn't seem to be in a hurry to regime change Syria when they were sending Maher Arar and other accused terrorists there to be interrogated and tortured for information...but all that changed a few years later when they are supporting "moderates" to overthrow the Assad regime along the pattern of the Libyan regime change earlier in the year.

There was unrest and demonstrations brewing in Syria in recent years, which began as climate change has caused severe droughts in Syria and Jordan in recent years, leading to farmers leaving their land and flocking to the cities. But that unrest has been encouraged, and funded and armed...just as it was in Libya.

No one had any illusions about the nature of the Assad Government in Syria, but back when US foreign policy had an element of sanity, they recognized that Syria was divided sectarian nation that could descend into chaos if there was an attempt to overthrow the government. And if the US has decided that they need to spread "freedom" to the Middle East, why haven't they started with the brutal dictatorships in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States? Which are not only oppressive despotic regimes that squander their nations' immense wealth, but they are also the fountainhead of the brand of Islam that Al Qaeda and ISIS adhere to. 90% of what ISIS teaches comes from Saudi clerics.

[WIP]

Turkey is a designated safe country and they are being fed/housed. The family of the child who died so tragically would not have qualified for refugee status anyway.

So, why are so many of these migrants fleeing Turkish refugee camps and trying to get into Europe now? And why is Turkey allowing smugglers to load them up on boats for the dangerous voyage?

[marcus]

Neither Mr. Trudeau, in his emotional demand that Canada take in 25,000 Syrian refugees immediately, nor Mr. Mulcair, in his more restrained but similar demand, have mentioned costs. In money terms is likely to be at least $2 billion as well as the ongoing maintenance for some years.

Would like to see the calculations of $2 billion. But let's say those numbers are correct. So what?

Maybe we can take it from the $56 Billion (omfg!) fund for scrap metal called the F35's.