The cost of Migrants

[Argus]

Once again I request that you educate yourself before trying to pass your opinion as facts.

Canada has special agreements with most European countries, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, where people under 35 (30 in some), can get an open work permit to come to Canada. So Canada is already targeting Europeans. The name of the program is IEC.

Why do you continue to expose your ignorance? Isn't it embarrassing to you? You clearly know nothing about immigration if you're even bringing up temporary working permits as a comparison. What I said was we could bring over hundreds of thousands of young university graduates from Europe as immigrants not temp workers. The government's own stats show European immigrants have a far superior economic performance to immigrants from anywhere else. Their average earnings are three to four times higher than that of those from the middle east. Which means they are actually going to be paying taxes, unlike those from the middle east.

[Argus]

My point lost completely and what you say is the complete reverse of what I said and you quoted. I said there is no place for those who discriminate base on race and now you say we choose young Europeans!!!!!!!

Who would fit in better with our progressive culture than Europeans? Do you argue I'm wrong there? What other part of the world is as socially advanced as Europe? And European immigrants perform better economically than people from any other region of the world.

[Argus]

Why apply some moral standard here but not there? Believing that homosexuality is or should be a crime is not all that unusual in this country right now.

Seriously, where do you people get this stuff? You think there's a lot of Canadians (excluding immigrants) who think homosexuals should be put in prison?

[cybercoma]

Got any evidence to support your belief?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/2008319/s13-eng.htm

They're not going to change us because our nation is founded on accommodation, recent immigrants tend to have lower voter turnout than canadian-born citizens, and the kinds of immigrants we accept are incredibly diverse. 25000 people spread out across the country over 4 years? That's not even a drop in the bucket. If Canadian-born First Nations can't even change our racist and oppressive culture towards them, what makes you think a few thousand Syrian refugees is going to change our national culture? They will come here and be surrounded by what's essentially a socially democratic society and end up adapting just like everyone else. There isn't even remotely enough of them to even imagine them changing our society in any significant way. There's tens of millions of us here and we're talking a few thousand refugees. They will barely be noticed.

[cybercoma]

What other part of the world is as socially advanced as Europe?

Socially advanced Europe.....save for the holocaust and all that.

[WIP]

Some might be, but others aren't. We've had incidents of imams, often ones brought in straight from (and sponsored by) Saudi Arabia, caught saying shocking things. British documentaries have done undercover filming in mosques and found imams saying things quite different from the public face they'd like to put on.

We're talking "Muslims Muslims Muslims" because right now it's a large group of Muslims we're talking about drop-shipping into Canadian communities.

I think we can agree that domestic violence and domestic homicide are issues in general, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm not claiming that bringing in thousands of Muslims will increase the rate of domestic violence or homicide. I'm arguing that bringing in tens of thousands of religious conservatives is a threat to the social progress we've made. And I'd feel the same if we were talking about drop-shipping 25,000 fundamentalist Christians into Canada.

-k

I think you and the more rabid band of Neocons here are missing a key point: categorical rejection of Muslims...including Muslims who are already living in Canada for christs sakes!...are going to be more inclined to reject mainstream secular culture and more inclined towards extremism, the more they are rejected and despised by the majority population. And don't kid yourself, I know enough Brits and Scots to have somewhat of a handle on how warmly they welcomed the first (mostly wealthy) Middle-eastern, Pakistani and Indian immigrants back in the 70's. None of them who were recently from the old country ever mentioned religion when they talked about "Pakis!" They didn't give a crap if they were from India, Pakistan, or were Hindu, Muslim or Christian....they were darkies....and that's all it boiled down to! FWIW, the fundamentalism of Pakistani and Indian Muslims didn't occur until after Saudi madrassahs entirely replaced the education system in Pakistan.

The divide would have ended like it does with most immigrants - once their children start going to public school. So, thank Tony Blair for facilitating the creation of education ghettoes by privatizing the public school system there...following the plan of Neoliberalism to privatize all public services. If England has an Islamic extremism problem today, it's one largely of their own creation!

This is the point where it needs to be emphasized that conservative thinkers...who sound the alarm and start building walls and fortresses as soon as they see someone who looks and acts differently from them! Being a liberal thinker...especially in troubled times...is the pov that actually takes real courage. Because giving people the benefit of the doubt when hysteria first rises up, takes time and a little reflection to keep the bridges open and talk to people who've had totally different life experiences. I just hope Canada reacts differently than Europe....especially Hungary...portraying themselves as defenders of Christianity in the face of muslim invasion, when in reality, the Syrian and Libyan refugees....that's right REFUGEES, are fleeing conditions that have largely been set in place first by climate change-induced desertification, and then by clumsy greedy American foreign policy which Europe as well as Canada has been in full support of!

[CITIZEN_2015]

Who would fit in better with our progressive culture than Europeans? Do you argue I'm wrong there? What other part of the world is as socially advanced as Europe? And European immigrants perform better economically than people from any other region of the world.

Yes you are wrong there. We need to bring in progressive people (individuals) not progressive continent. There are many other progressive people in other 4 continents too and you wish to exclude them simply because they aren't born in Europe. Smells racism or ignorance to me. And though I agree percentage-wise it is higher in Europe who can adopt best or fastest to Canada however you cannot outright exclude four/fifth of the world population based on that.

And by the way there are many non-progressive people in Europe too. Many who are racist or hateful or criminal or have no respect for equality and rights of women or gays. Worse crimes against humanity in the past century were committed by Europeans (Germany in 30's and 40's, Russia, during and after Bolshevik revolution,, Serbia in the 90's ...........). Contrary to what you and your friend trying to brainwash people here all these undesirable characteristics are not limited to middle east or Muslims but extends to Europeans too. And since when Argentina and Brazil having most of South America's population or Australia and New Zealand are less progressive than Latin or Eastern Europeans???!!!.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

I think we can agree that domestic violence and domestic homicide are issues in general, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm not claiming that bringing in thousands of Muslims will increase the rate of domestic violence or homicide. I'm arguing that bringing in tens of thousands of religious conservatives is a threat to the social progress we've made. And I'd feel the same if we were talking about drop-shipping 25,000 fundamentalist Christians into Canada.

-k

This is the sort of honest approach we'll never see from our governments though. They never associate the words religious and conservatives in the same breath the way you have, not in any way that might suggest conservatism has anything to do with anything. Governments and politicians use the terms zealots, radicals and simply Muslims, leave it at that and completely miss the more salient aspect, conservatism, in the process.

[CITIZEN_2015]

A reflection of what I have read recently - A total surprise.

I can't believe the fear mongering and even hate on this board about Muslims in so many threads. Comments ranging from describing them as desert born, to those claiming they are mostly rapists or ALL disrespectful to women and then those who claim they would form an Islamic state and drive us out!!. I mean come on!!! does this reflect the Canadian view on the subject? If so then my heart goes out to all those Muslims residing in Canada facing hatred and regarded as a danger or a virus every day and everywhere. But I don't think so. Not remotely.

Considering that there are only slightly over one million Muslims in Canada (slightly over 3% of population) and many of them are not even religious or practicing Muslims and the fact that 4 out of every 5 newcomer is a non-Muslim, I cannot call all these comments anything but fear mongering or ignorance or bigotry. Or may be all of above.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Peter F]

Here Here! well said.

[Bonam]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/2008319/s13-eng.htm

They're not going to change us because our nation is founded on accommodation, recent immigrants tend to have lower voter turnout than canadian-born citizens, and the kinds of immigrants we accept are incredibly diverse. 25000 people spread out across the country over 4 years? That's not even a drop in the bucket. If Canadian-born First Nations can't even change our racist and oppressive culture towards them, what makes you think a few thousand Syrian refugees is going to change our national culture? They will come here and be surrounded by what's essentially a socially democratic society and end up adapting just like everyone else. There isn't even remotely enough of them to even imagine them changing our society in any significant way. There's tens of millions of us here and we're talking a few thousand refugees. They will barely be noticed.

25,000 is this particular batch of refugees. And I agree, 25k is a small number and wouldn't change anything in the long run. But that's not the whole story. For one, we're getting 250k-300k immigrants per year all the time anyway, and that IS enough to change society in a significant way. Secondly, the moment you give an inch you are asked for a mile. Look at Germany, which is now in the position of accepting 800k refugees and is talking about an additional 500k per year for an indefinite period going forward. That is most certainly enough to change society.

[Canada_First]

Only one Hitler changed Europe. 25000 is more than enough.

[Canada_First]

So the UK and France or Sweden are just imagining the gang raping of white women by Muslim gangs?

Edited September 10, 2015 by Canada_First

[GostHacked]

Safer than being barrel bombed by Assad's forces or decapitated by ISIL, sure. But are permanent refugee camps in the Turkish desert a humane, long-term solution to this issue?

You've laid out the argument against, fine. Now what would you do, assuming you actually think we have a humanitarian obligation here (which is admittedly a leap of faith on my part).

How safe are they with the likes of the Free Syrian Army? Which Turkey was complicit in helping establishing a base and provided weapons. All three options seem to suck to the max.

[GostHacked]

But if Assad goes, expect the same thing to happen there as it did in Iraq. You WILL have ISIS take over. I'll take Assad (and should have left Saddam alone) over those nutbars any day. Blow away the power structure and the place will (but it happened already) go to crap.

[kimmy]

Seriously: to my knowledge we have no religious conservatives, but we have many atheists. We have no anti gays or anti semites. We do have a variety of countries represented including the U.K. one of whom is non practicing Jew who fled the U.K. who speaks from experience.

hmm. I mostly remember a bunch of angry old-people complaining that "the gays are getting more rights than everybody else."

It seems like your kind of people like to pretend they care about gay people when it gives them a chance to complain about Muslims.

I find it as funny as when progressives bend over backwards to excuse and accommodate bigotry... if it comes from brown people.

-k

[kimmy]

Socially advanced Europe.....save for the holocaust and all that.

If the Holocaust were an accurate reflection of Germany's present day state, I doubt Muslims would be rioting to get into Germany.

-k

[kimmy]

25,000 is this particular batch of refugees. And I agree, 25k is a small number and wouldn't change anything in the long run.

25,000 sounds like a drop in the bucket, but that's a little deceptive. The 25,000 won't be spread evenly about the country. They'll be landing in neighborhoods like Edmonton's Mill Woods, and equivalent neighborhoods in Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto, and Ottawa, because those neighborhoods already have prominent Muslim presence. So now you're not talking about 25,000 into a population of 30,000,000 you're talking about maybe 3000 to 5000 into a population of about 80000 and it doesn't seem like a drop in the bucket anymore.

-k

[eyeball]

I can't believe the fear mongering and even hate on this board about Muslims in so many threads. Comments ranging from describing them as desert born, to those claiming they are mostly rapists or ALL disrespectful to women and then those who claim they would form an Islamic state and drive us out!!. I mean come on!!! does this reflect the Canadian view on the subject?

Of course not, it by far only reflects the strident views of conservative Canadians with zero ethical and moral capacities due to decades of wallowing in their own Islamophobic loathing.

They are every bit as godawful as that which they despise and cut from the very same cloth.

[WestCoastRunner]

25,000 sounds like a drop in the bucket, but that's a little deceptive. The 25,000 won't be spread evenly about the country. They'll be landing in neighborhoods like Edmonton's Mill Woods, and equivalent neighborhoods in Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto, and Ottawa, because those neighborhoods already have prominent Muslim presence. So now you're not talking about 25,000 into a population of 30,000,000 you're talking about maybe 3000 to 5000 into a population of about 80000 and it doesn't seem like a drop in the bucket anymore.

-k

So what.

[On Guard for Thee]

I can't believe the fear mongering and even hate on this board about Muslims in so many threads. Comments ranging from describing them as desert born, to those claiming they are mostly rapists or ALL disrespectful to women and then those who claim they would form an Islamic state and drive us out!!. I mean come on!!! does this reflect the Canadian view on the subject? If so then my heart goes out to all those Muslims residing in Canada facing hatred and regarded as a danger or a virus every day and everywhere. But I don't think so. Not remotely.

I think a lot of those comments likely come fro people who have never, but maybe ought to, go do some travelling and try and see if they can confirm their blinkered ideas. Ain't no better education than getting on a plane and going to live within a community. IMO.

[kimmy]

I guess that's your opinion about what might happen in the future. It's my belief that our society will change them more than they will change our society, if these people are as religious and conservative as you say.

I would only care that the laws here don't allow for homosexuals to be thrown in prison. Like Peter F was saying, it matters what people do, not what they think. As much as I disagree with people, they're entitled to their thoughts. I will fight against them tooth and nail should they try to put those regressive ideals into practice though. Think homosexuals are disgusting heathens that have no place in society? Fine. You're an asshole. But if you've beaten and/or murdered homosexuals because you don't like who they choose for a partner, then no. You can stay in whatever hole you crawled out of.

But we don't get to screen them on that criteria. We can check if they have criminal records and are on terror watch-lists (theoretically, at least). But we don't get to ask "how would you react if you saw two men holding hands on the street" or "do you think women should be allowed to work outside the home." This isn't immigration, where we get to choose people we think are educated and have something to offer. This is, basically, we get what we get unless we have a red-flag reason to turn them away.

It just bothers me that some progressives will talk about what a scumbag Kim Davis is and in the next talk about how we need to bring in more Syrians.

-k

[kimmy]

A reflection of what I have read recently - A total surprise.

I can't believe the fear mongering and even hate on this board about Muslims in so many threads. Comments ranging from describing them as desert born, to those claiming they are mostly rapists or ALL disrespectful to women and then those who claim they would form an Islamic state and drive us out!!. I mean come on!!! does this reflect the Canadian view on the subject? If so then my heart goes out to all those Muslims residing in Canada facing hatred and regarded as a danger or a virus every day and everywhere. But I don't think so. Not remotely.

Considering that there are only slightly over one million Muslims in Canada (slightly over 3% of population) and many of them are not even religious or practicing Muslims and the fact that 4 out of every 5 newcomer is a non-Muslim, I cannot call all these comments anything but fear mongering or ignorance or bigotry. Or may be all of above.

I don't think anybody is saying that most Muslims are rapists, or that all Muslims are disrespectful to women.

There are progressive Muslims. Some of them might even be Syrian. But by and large, your typical Syrian takes his Quran very seriously and socially speaking is going to have views that make Mike Huckabee look like a liberal hippy.

-k

[WestCoastRunner]

But we don't get to screen them on that criteria. We can check if they have criminal records and are on terror watch-lists (theoretically, at least). But we don't get to ask "how would you react if you saw two men holding hands on the street" or "do you think women should be allowed to work outside the home." This isn't immigration, where we get to choose people we think are educated and have something to offer. This is, basically, we get what we get unless we have a red-flag reason to turn them away.

It just bothers me that some progressives will talk about what a scumbag Kim Davis is and in the next talk about how we need to bring in more Syrians.

-k

We need to provide humanitarian aid to these refugees. It's pretty simple. It's a global crisis not a European crisis. We need to do our part.

[kimmy]

So what.

So if you drop 5000 people who think homosexuality is a crime that should be punished by prison or death, and that women rate somewhere between livestock and property, into my neighborhood... I am moving ASAP. That's so what.

-k