Atheist Minister Fights to Keep her Job

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/atheist-minister-fighting-united-churchs-effort-to-fire-her/article25849312/

"An ordained United Church of Canada minister who believes in neither God nor Bible said Wednesday she is prepared to fight an unprecedented attempt to boot her from the pulpit for her beliefs."

I would submit that reasonable accommodation for religions includes their right to fire ministers who don't believe. We often discuss edge cases on here, such as the case where private airlines try to accommodate Orthodox Jews who don't want to sit beside women. This case seems to me to be more clear.

Does anyone here side with the minister ?

[Boges]

I've heard this lady on the radio. I think she's trying to troll everyone. What does she talk about at church if she doesn't believe in God?

[Michael Hardner]

She equates God to "community" somehow... it wasn't clear to me either.

[Boges]

She equates God to "community" somehow... it wasn't clear to me either.

There's a church in GTA that coins itself the Church for People that Aren't in Religion. They echo the sentiment that Christians lost there way when they made a relationship with God all about the rules which you have to follow. But they still believe in God and use the Bible for guidance.

[Shady]

Yeah she really needs to find another job. This is absurd.

[msj]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/atheist-minister-fighting-united-churchs-effort-to-fire-her/article25849312/

"An ordained United Church of Canada minister who believes in neither God nor Bible said Wednesday she is prepared to fight an unprecedented attempt to boot her from the pulpit for her beliefs."

I would submit that reasonable accommodation for religions includes their right to fire ministers who don't believe. We often discuss edge cases on here, such as the case where private airlines try to accommodate Orthodox Jews who don't want to sit beside women. This case seems to me to be more clear.

Does anyone here side with the minister ?

I doubt many will side with her.

No different than my workplace: if one of my staff says that she does not believe in following GAAP and the income tax act then she will see the door as those are necessary to carry out the job.

But to some how make this equivalent to Jews expressing their bigotry on a plane is absurd.

This notion that we must not have any discrimination is groundless.

Of course we should discriminate: this woman does not get a job at a place of worship and the Jews can buy more than one seat.

Edited August 6, 2015 by msj

[kimmy]

Yeah, this is dumb. Professing faith seems like a requirement for the job. Seems to me that she's like a school teacher who has decided to disregard the required curriculum.

From her beliefs, she sounds like she should be at a Unitarian church instead.

There's a church in GTA that coins itself the Church for People that Aren't in Religion. They echo the sentiment that Christians lost there way when they made a relationship with God all about the rules which you have to follow. But they still believe in God and use the Bible for guidance.

One thing people lose when they leave the church is the sense of community. Some atheists have been trying to create these "atheist churches" to build the same sort of sense of community that religious people enjoy. I don't know whether it will take off.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

But to some how make this equivalent to Jews expressing their bigotry on a plane is absurd.

Nobody made this 'equivalent'. The general topic is the same, ie. 'reasonable accommodation'.

This notion that we must not have any discrimination is groundless.

Agreed.

Of course we should discriminate: this woman does not get a job at a place of worship and the Jews can buy more than one seat.

Or the airline can tell women they have to move, and risk the backlash... but that's for the other thread...

[Bryan]

For the United Church, this is not all that weird. They have basically been the church for people who don't believe in anything specific for quite some time. It was only a matter of time before they attracted a minister who felt the same way. Maybe this will be a wakeup call for the whole denomination to get back to basics.

[Big Guy]

Anyone can open a church to celebrate any belief. Not anyone can open a church, using the name and umbrella of an established religion, and then not conform to the religious doctrine of the umbrella organization.

You want your own church preaching your particular doctrine then open your own church - do not use the banner, protection and reputation of an established religion as a mislabelled vehicle to spout your beliefs.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Big Guy

[WIP]

I've heard this lady on the radio. I think she's trying to troll everyone. What does she talk about at church if she doesn't believe in God?

Who says accepting requests for interviews is trolling?

I've heard her interviewed at least a couple of different times this year - once on the CBC Radio show - The Current, and even on the Australian ABC Radio show - Religion. She's probably restricting interviews to the shows that she can tell her story and make her case....so that pretty much eliminates all soundbite sensationalist commercial media like CNN etc.. From what I recall, she didn't begin her ministry as an atheist, it was by examination of evidence for God that she started becoming a skeptic, and then realized she was an atheist. That is how the path towards atheism happens to a lot of us!

As for the question: I'm a former United Church member and I don't believe "supernatural" phenomena of all kinds represents anything more than placeholders for the things we don't have answers to yet. So, I don't have a vested interest in what goes on in the United Church today, except to say that when I left, a big part of the reason was because the Church was paralyzed by divisions between more liberal urban churches and the conservative country churches, and trying to aim right down the middle with fuzzy, non-committal advice and directions for the Church to follow. Even at the local level, I have no idea whether our minister actually believed in God or a literal interpretation of the Church Creed....he didn't seem to do it with great enthusiasm....it was just something he would preach about when he had to!

After years of fumbling with the issue, they finally made a decision to recognize gay church members, and have ceremonies for gay relationships, so I can't see why recognizing atheists...even behind the podium would be a big deal, as long as the minister follows Church principles and can do the job of ministering to the flock....but, then again, I'm on the outside looking in now!

It's worth noting that modern western religions that have arisen as a way to compartmentalize a community's spiritual beliefs and ritual ceremonies away from practical everyday life, still mostly made up of two parts:

1. A set of metaphysical beliefs that are shared and even enforced under the threat of expulsion. And

2. A set of guiding principles of conduct and social rules to follow.

As a liberal Protestant Church, the United Church is kind of light on both parts, so that may have encouraged the falling away of many younger members. I can think of one religion: Unitarian Universalist, which doesn't have a shared set of doctrinal beliefs for everyone to follow...even the existence of God! So, if Greta Vosper was a UU minister, she could just take a place with the other atheist ministers in the UU Church.

It will be interesting to see if the United Church goes in the Unitarian Universalist direction, since both churches in the amalgamated church started out much more conservative and then started liberalizing over time, ending up without doctrinal baggage by the 1960's, when they decided their shared principles were enough to justify amalgamation. Maybe United and Anglican and what's left of other mainline Protestant churches might consider going the same route!

[WIP]

From her beliefs, she sounds like she should be at a Unitarian church instead.

One thing people lose when they leave the church is the sense of community. Some atheists have been trying to create these "atheist churches" to build the same sort of sense of community that religious people enjoy. I don't know whether it will take off.

-k

I already mentioned Unitarian Universalist...I think Quakers....if we got any in Canada, would be a second option. But I'm wondering if this isn't the direction the United Church itself might as well go anyway! They refused to dig in their heels like the Catholic Church and some others a half century ago to resist change. The problem has been for decades that the United seems to be arbitrary in deciding where to plant their flag and unable to provide good clear reasons for where they stand.

The UU's are already an atheist church for many.....if you're a liberal towards the left side of the political spectrum. Right wing atheists will have to settle for the tiny atheist-humanist meetup groups and continue spending most of their time bitching about religion and trolling messageboards to attack the beliefs of the Christians and other religious adherents.

[Moonlight Graham]

I've heard this lady on the radio. I think she's trying to troll everyone. What does she talk about at church if she doesn't believe in God?

You can believe in the teachings of Jesus as a philosophical way of life, and adhere to it as an ideology rather than as religious dogma based on what "factually occurred". I think a lot of atheists in the West were raised Christian and/or raised in a Christian-based society, and still believe (whether they admit it and realize it or not) in a lot of Jesus' teachings, like being kind to one another, helping the poor and being charitable, turning the other cheek, and some basics of the 10 Commandments like don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery etc. There's lot of things you can take from Christianity without believing Jesus literally walked or water or rose from the dead.

That said, I don't think her church would necessarily be without right to fire her.

[The_Squid]

You can't be fired from your job for your religious convictions, can you?

I thought that was against the law.

[cybercoma]

You can't be fired from your job for your religious convictions, can you?

I thought that was against the law.

The rule is reasonable accommodation. It's not exactly reasonable to expect a church to hire you as a pastor if you don't exactly belief in the tenets of the faith, yeah?

[The_Squid]

The rule is reasonable accommodation. It's not exactly reasonable to expect a church to hire you as a pastor if you don't exactly belief in the tenets of the faith, yeah?

So churches get special treatment...

[Argus]

For the United Church, this is not all that weird. They have basically been the church for people who don't believe in anything specific for quite some time. It was only a matter of time before they attracted a minister who felt the same way. Maybe this will be a wakeup call for the whole denomination to get back to basics.

Agreed. The United Church isn't much of a church. It's more a glorified social club for painfully earnest middle class liberals.

[cybercoma]

So churches get special treatment...

Only if you don't think believing in the tenets of a faith are a mandatory aspect to doing the job of preaching about that faith.

[Bryan]

You can't be fired from your job for your religious convictions, can you?

I thought that was against the law.

In this case, the religious conviction IS the job. You can be removed from any job if you're no longer capable of doing it.

[WIP]

Agreed. The United Church isn't much of a church. It's more a glorified social club for painfully earnest middle class liberals.

And so are those evangelical megachurches that have all the Jesusy rhetoric! If their success was determined by their fundamentalist beliefs and rigid moral rules, then why would they put so much emphasis on identifying the needs of suburbanites with young families and providing the services for them that will keep them coming back....even if they don't believe Adam and Eve were riding dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden?

[WIP]

why would an atheist continue on as minister for a church? Probably for most of the same reasons that a liberal Christian who believes in God, but is not a fundamentalist, still continues as a minister.

I don't know if anyone else here reads any of the Patheos religion or atheism bloggers, but I've become a fan recently of a liberal Disciples of Christ minister named Erin Wathen. This recent blog post, I think might explain to many of us who are unchurched and don't believe in supernatural stuff why there still are dedicated liberal Christians, who are going to remain Christians and stand by their churches regardless of your best atheist reasons to leave and turn the church building into a restaurant or a tavern or something:

$h*! Jesus Says: 7 Reasons I’m (Still) a Christian

moving towards the conclusion:

I’m still here because ‘the Body of Christ,’ as a vehicle for world transformation, makes a lot more sense to me than any model of business, government or society that I’ve ever heard of.

I’m here because everything about the life of Jesus and the book of Acts gives me hope.

And I’m here because once you sift through all the junk–the rhetoric, the ideology, the painful abuses and the grotesque human love of power–the heart of Christianity boils down to a few really simple directives that Jesus spoke to his disciples. Much as I love the other trappings of church life and ministry, I’m really here to learn more about these words:

1. Love your neighbor as yourself.

2. Feed my sheep.

3. Go and make disciples.

4. Follow me.

5. Pray for your enemies.

6. Give to the poor.

7. Take. Eat. Remember.

I’m still here because if you get right down to it, following these 7 directives would make for a pretty full and meaningful life for anyone–regardless of their attachment to creed or custom. And a whole BUNCH of people following these directives would make for a pretty just and peaceable world. I don’t know any other kind of body, government or otherwise, that has managed to do that. So–fully admitting that the Church as we know it has not always lived up to this model for life and community… I’m still here, believing that we can do better. And believing that there is nothing more important in life than that we try.

And because clearly, Jesus his own self was also down for a potluck. Take. Eat. Remember. And so we do.

What about you, friends? Why are you still here? I would love to know.

[Mighty AC]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/atheist-minister-fighting-united-churchs-effort-to-fire-her/article25849312/

"An ordained United Church of Canada minister who believes in neither God nor Bible said Wednesday she is prepared to fight an unprecedented attempt to boot her from the pulpit for her beliefs."

I would submit that reasonable accommodation for religions includes their right to fire ministers who don't believe. We often discuss edge cases on here, such as the case where private airlines try to accommodate Orthodox Jews who don't want to sit beside women. This case seems to me to be more clear.

Does anyone here side with the minister ?

The number of closeted atheist pastors, stuck in their role with a church is a growing problem. In my opinion, anyone who spends time studying the Bible is bound to become an atheist. It's a tough position for pastors though, as their skill sets and experience make it difficult to quickly and easily find decent employment elsewhere. Plus, their entire personal network centers around their church which means they often don't have anyone to turn to for help. Thus, many keep on preachin' despite a lack of belief. The Clergy Project was actually created to help atheist pastors get a new start.

I met an atheist, former pastor who went through the ordeal of leaving a church and religion behind. He tried to remain in his home town, but was harassed by members of his former church and was ultimately forced to move across the country. He said his former congregation not only shunned him but some actually actively sabotaged his attempts to find new employment.

That being said I think the appearance of belief in the mythology is a requirement for the job of pastor. I'm sure atheists can effectively handle the duties of a preacher, provided the congregation believes they believe. Not only would open non-believers at the helm of churches be ineffective at selling the fairy tale, their presence in that role would likely hasten the already accelerating decline in religiosity. The woman in the OP has to go.

[-1=e^ipi]

In my opinion, anyone who spends time studying the Bible is bound to become an atheist.

This is what happened with Matt Dillahunty, and now he's the host of the Atheist Experience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Dillahunty

[jacee]

You can't be fired from your job for your religious convictions, can you?

I thought that was against the law.

You can be hired for any job because you have the prerequisites for the job, and fired if you don't.

How long would a person last at Home Depot if they keep telling customers Walmart is better?

And I believe a religious exemption may kick in here too.

[The_Squid]

You can be hired for any job because you have the prerequisites for the job, and fired if you don't.

How long would a person last at Home Depot if they keep telling customers Walmart is better?

And I believe a religious exemption may kick in here too.

Can Home Depot demand you have to be a Christian? And fire a Muslim because they aren't the correct religion? That's the correct analogy.

I know a religious exemption exists... and should exist... I'm just playing the devil's advocate to point out the ridiculousness of believing in myths and the lengths we go through to prop up those myths.

Religious beliefs are exempt from our Constitution...

Religious beliefs are exempt from psychiatric disorders! If anyone other than a deeply religious person heard voices telling them what to do, they'd be diagnosed with a mental illness/syndrome.

Edited August 10, 2015 by The_Squid