Moonlight Graham Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Poor attempt to start a discussion - can we please have a cite or something to base the discussion on rather than Scotty's perceptions ? His opening post is just his own opinion. If an editorial opinion piece in a newspaper doesn't need citations or hyperlinks, why here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Well, i've seen the women that Scotty is talking about, the ones that regret being in the situation of "having" to work. I've seen too many latch key kids and too many kids run through the foster system from families that are broken or just too vacant to be decent parents. However, as WCR alluded, I have 2 houses, 2 nice cars and some expensive toys and without my wifes income, that would not be possible. Our kids do fine also, so yeah, I'm all for women working. My wife wants to be a stay at home mother. It's a real challenge financially for me. I work my a$$ off. I make it work. Been 12 years, and we doing ok. I've had to get creative at some times. Edited June 1, 2015 by Freddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The point of feminism isn't what people think, good or bad, of the outcomes from choices women make, the point is that women themselves are able to make those choices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 His opening post is just his own opinion. If an editorial opinion piece in a newspaper doesn't need citations or hyperlinks, why here? OT: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24533-should-links-be-required-when-starting-threads/?p=1058650 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The point of feminism isn't what people think, good or bad, of the outcomes from choices women make, the point is that women themselves are able to make those choices Kind of like democracy. It's considered a good idea, even though we elected Harper, Chretien, Mulroney, Trudeau, etc. Or free enterprise. It's considered a good idea, even though Blackberry, Tim Hortons, Canadian Tire, Rogers, Bell, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 My wife wants to be a stay at home mother. It's a real challenge financially for me. I work my a$$ off. I make it work. Been 12 years, and we doing ok. I've had to get creative at some times. Pretty cool that your wife has that choice. When I think of feminism I think of my own mother who just missed the second wave. She had a career she loved and gave her life meaning and then had to give it up once she married and had kids. It wasn't until decades later once we'd all grown up that she was able to get back out and find activities outside the home that she was really happy. Maybe if she had actual choices she would have been better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) How can men care for, protect and love the women in their lives ....It's like talking about a child or worse a pet. The misogyny is real. Edited June 1, 2015 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I don't think he was saying feminism is a bad thing.Feminism destroys lives. That's not a bad thing? smh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 So if women just quit their jobs en masse, wages will jump? Manufacturers will come back from Asia? Industries will mothball their computers and machines and hire humans to do work again? Companies will stop importing foreign workers? -k I didn't suggest this could be reversed. And we mostly have a service economy, so the low wages of Chinese don't enter into it. Wages began going down long before Chinese imports started going up, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Poor attempt to start a discussion - can we please have a cite or something to base the discussion on rather than Scotty's perceptions ? There is no rule which says you need a cite to start every discussion. Why should I post someone else's opinion in order to validate my own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I also didn't realize that families living beyond their means (or needs/requirements) was attributed to feminism - who knew! All those McMansions requiring 2-family incomes... damn you feminists!!! Are you saying only Mcmansions require two family incomes? My perception is almost any family but the wealthiest requires two incomes to avoid poverty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Let's let Scotty PM me about this. I'm not sure I need you to interpret what he was expressing here. It was a thought which occurred to me, to be honest, when I was shopping a Wal-Mart and seeing all those tired looking middle aged women who had been on their feet all day in their little blue outfits. This is what feminism has wrought for women? These women didn't strike me as having benefited from feminism at all, and most jobs are closer to theirs than to some high flying executive. That means most women are doing lousy work they probably don't like very much in order that the very few can have great careers. I don't know why you guys need to agonize over the damn title anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Feminism has caused a lot of alcoholic abusive bitter men to be ... SINGLE! . And a lot of women to be single, too. A LOT of women leading lives that are no more fulfilling and often less than their grandmothers were. The reason couples HAD to stay together in the past was tradition and the difficulty of women getting either jobs or financial support from the husband. I think the latter is mainly assured now. I agree that women needed to have the ability to support themselves in the cases like you describe, but most women were, if you ask older women quite content to stay home all day. I also think divorce has increased isn't because of alcoholic husbands but because people expect near perfection from their partners and don't get it. And by perfection I mean excitement, partying, constant romance, etc. And because both parties are so busy with jobs and feeling overwrought with it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Would they be better off in an abusive household? No, but that was always a small minority. Are they living in poverty because their absent fathers don't pay child support? Most husbands pay child support, and wind up living in poverty themselves unless they have a very good job. You are describing problems that result from abuse and irresponsibility of men That's nonsense. I know a lot of women who divorced their husband or constantly dump their partners for little things, and I've watched them getting older - alone, never able to find that perfect man they think they deserve. I know women who are in their late thirties now and haven't had a steady boyfriend for ten years because they need this ideal person, and quite honestly they aren't good enough for such a man. They're going into middle age with a growing belly and widening hips and diminishing hope of ever finding a real life partner. And the ones that have a kid, when that kid leaves that's mostly their life now. What do they do then? Buy a cat? Edited June 1, 2015 by Scotty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 ....What do they do then? Buy a cat? Yes...many of them do buy a cat...several cats. They become "Cat Ladies". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Why should I post someone else's opinion in order to validate my own? You posted some facts, though, which would be good to have some cites. Do you see ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Are you saying only Mcmansions require two family incomes? My perception is almost any family but the wealthiest requires two incomes to avoid poverty. any family... any? Avoiding poverty? Perhaps your hyperbolic perception lacks preciseness in terms of establishing the family median income level and defining poverty... and then linking the two. In any case, the obvious points were emphasizing and keying on those individuals, through their conscious decisions, living beyond their means... and your failure to make a case that this somehow was a singular reflection on feminism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I don't know why you guys need to agonize over the damn title anyway. I guess we don't need to, if you just concede that it might not be true, ie. it's just your feelings about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Would you say we are better off for it as a society? This is the thing. I can't see how we are. In some cities in the US and Europe now 40% or more of households consist of one person living alone. In Manhattan it's 50% Stockholm its 60%. This is a social phenomenon which has no good side to it as people age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 From what I'm understanding from our women, Men only have themselves to blame for feminism. It was born out of abuse by men. No. It was born out of ambition and restlessness of some women, generally women who came from well-off families and went to university. They weren't content to simply marry an be someone's wife and mother. With which I can sympathize, by the way. It's good that such women now have all kinds of career choices. I'm saying that this has not been good for the majority of women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Pretty cool that your wife has that choice. When I think of feminism I think of my own mother who just missed the second wave. She had a career she loved and gave her life meaning and then had to give it up once she married and had kids. It wasn't until decades later once we'd all grown up that she was able to get back out and find activities outside the home that she was really happy. Maybe if she had actual choices she would have been better off. To each his freedom. We choose our children too give our life meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Feminism isn't a bad thing. It was born out of women fighting for their human rights. No, it was born out of women being bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The op should be tied in somehow to this article and not left up to us to try and figure how it is. The single mother having difficulty raising children is just one aspect of singlehood. I was thinking more of the diminished lives of such people, living alone, especially after their kids are raised. I know some single mothers whose whole lives are centered on their kid or kids. When those kids leave they're lives will become very, very empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 No, it was born out of women being bored. a totally ignorant comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 any family... any? Avoiding poverty? Perhaps your hyperbolic perception lacks preciseness in terms of establishing the family median income level and defining poverty... and then linking the two. In any case, the obvious points were emphasizing and keying on those individuals, through their conscious decisions, living beyond their means... and your failure to make a case that this somehow was a singular reflection on feminism. I didn't think I needed to make a case that the two income family was now just about a requirement. Why do you suppose it used to be the exception? People working fairly ordinary jobs used to be able to support a family which consisted of a wife and usually three or four kids reasonably well. Can you put forth a reason why that stopped happening? And it stopped happening well before offshore outsourcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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