Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

Bonam · January 9, 2015

People have the right to free speech, but they don't have the right to be students at a school of dentistry, or to be licensed by provincial dentistry boards (just to pick two examples.)

You have the right to call somebody a fat-ass, but if you work at my McKimmy's restaurant and you're calling my customers fat-asses, you're going to be out of a job real quick. If you work at CBC and you creating an environment where your female co-workers are terrified of you, you'll probably get fired

Unless all the women act like WCR is suggesting and don't bother reporting you because they are "scared to rock the boat"...

The whole idea of being scared to rock the boat is the same problem with how some people respond to the France incident, as well. Some people seem to be expressing the idea (in that thread) that we should avoid saying anything that might offend crazy Muslims, avoid rocking the boat, for fear of the consequences. This is not the way forward. The way forward, whether it is for free speech, or for a woman in the workplace, is to stand up for ones self and one's rights.

TimG · January 9, 2015

I don't have a Dalhousie student handbook nearby, but I can guaran-damn-tee that it contains a code of student conduct that forbids creating a hostile or threatening environment for fellow students.

Question is what are the consequences? Immediate expulsion or a hearing to determine the facts and a sliding scale of punishments depending on the severity of the offense?

“As outlined by the Health Professions Act, all applicants for registration in Alberta must supply evidence of having good character and reputation by submitting any requested materials.”

Then they are SOL. I don't oppose codes of conduct, morals clauses in contracts or any other set of rules that are set out in advance. If someone chooses to associate with an institution they must give up some of their free speech rights. What I oppose are the lynch mobs that form demanding blood even though they have no access to the details of the case.

kimmy · January 9, 2015

Unless all the women act like WCR is suggesting and don't bother reporting you because they are "scared to rock the boat"...

The whole idea of being scared to rock the boat is the same problem with how some people respond to the France incident, as well. Some people seem to be expressing the idea (in that thread) that we should avoid saying anything that might offend crazy Muslims, avoid rocking the boat, for fear of the consequences. This is not the way forward. The way forward, whether it is for free speech, or for a woman in the workplace, is to stand up for ones self and one's rights.

One thing we've seen recently in both the Jian Ghomeshi case and the Bill Cosby case is that most of the women kept quiet because they were afraid nobody would believe them, and the ones who didn't keep quiet, nobody believed.

-k

kimmy · January 9, 2015

Unless all the women act like WCR is suggesting and don't bother reporting you because they are "scared to rock the boat"...

The whole idea of being scared to rock the boat is the same problem with how some people respond to the France incident, as well. Some people seem to be expressing the idea (in that thread) that we should avoid saying anything that might offend crazy Muslims, avoid rocking the boat, for fear of the consequences. This is not the way forward. The way forward, whether it is for free speech, or for a woman in the workplace, is to stand up for ones self and one's rights.

Further to this, female students at Dalhousie dental school have been complaining for months about both male students and faculty, but were afraid to lodge formal complaints because they feared reprisals from the faculty.

-k

kimmy · January 9, 2015

Question is what are the consequences? Immediate expulsion or a hearing to determine the facts and a sliding scale of punishments depending on the severity of the offense?

I'm not for immediate expulsion without investigation, but at the same time the response by the university had until this week been pathetic. "Restorative justice" sounds like a joke. If I was the victim of this sort of harassment, I promise you the last thing I'd want is to have to sit down at a table and talk with the people who victimized me. It sounds like worse punishment for the victims than for the people who are supposed to be punished.

Now the university has belatedly issued suspensions, but only after massive public derision that has damaged the reputation of the school as a whole, and will probably tarnish all the graduates of that class.

-k

Bonam · January 9, 2015

So what is the answer to not being believed or not being taken seriously? Just give up? Demand that any accusation be instantly treated as true without any examination? No, neither one is the answer.

kimmy · January 9, 2015

So what is the answer to not being believed or not being taken seriously? Just give up? Demand that any accusation be instantly treated as true without any examination? No, neither one is the answer.

Apparently, as we've learned from the CBC case and the Dalhousie case, the answer is to get the story out into social media so that it can explode to the point where the people in charge of sweeping it under the rug have a disaster that's too big to sweep under the rug, at which point they have to do what they were supposed to do in the first place.

-k

WestCoastRunner · January 9, 2015

So what is the answer to not being believed or not being taken seriously? Just give up? Demand that any accusation be instantly treated as true without any examination? No, neither one is the answer.

What is not to be believed? I don't understand this statement? The FB posts have been documented and verified. Are you suggesting that these posts were posted by others?

jacee · January 9, 2015

So what is the answer to not being believed or not being taken seriously? Just give up? Demand that any accusation be instantly treated as true without any examination? No, neither one is the answer.

Go to the police.

.

Bonam · January 9, 2015

Apparently, as we've learned from the CBC case and the Dalhousie case, the answer is to get the story out into social media so that it can explode to the point where the people in charge of sweeping it under the rug have a disaster that's too big to sweep under the rug, at which point they have to do what they were supposed to do in the first place.

-k

Go to the police.

.

I would agree with both of these methods. In regards to social media though, I would caution that the response of an agitated, ill-informed, internet mob is not likely to be fair and considered towards all parties involved.

jacee · January 9, 2015

I would agree with both of these methods. In regards to social media though, I would caution that the response of an agitated, ill-informed, internet mob is not likely to be fair and considered towards all parties involved.

The police will do a fair assessment of the facts.

The university will do a cover up.

.

Michael Hardner · January 9, 2015

"Restorative justice" sounds like a joke. If I was the victim of this sort of harassment, I promise you the last thing I'd want is to have to sit down at a table and talk with the people who victimized me. It sounds like worse punishment for the victims than for the people who are supposed to be punished.

If I were mediating such a dispute, I would first ask you what you would want to hear from the offenders, then I would communicate that to the offenders. Often, in my experience, an explanation, sincere contrition, and an apology is what is asked for. To humanize everyone in this process and make the offenders truly see how their actions have affected people is one possible way to resolution.

While the public is indeed owed an explanation of how this was resolved, they should not be entitled to be witness to the discussions that constitute real healing.

Now the university has belatedly issued suspensions, but only after massive public derision that has damaged the reputation of the school as a whole, and will probably tarnish all the graduates of that class.

-k

"Tarnished"... meaning being associated to this thing by people who have nothing to do with it.

kimmy · January 9, 2015

I would caution that the response of an agitated, ill-informed, internet mob is not likely to be fair and considered towards all parties involved.

This is the risk these administrators take by failing to get out in front of these scandals. These events-- CBC, Dalhousie dental school, Steubenville, Bill Cosby and so on, that evolve into internet shitstorms are a result of pent up anger at the appearance that the perpetrators have gotten away unscathed. One situation where an internet shitstorm was successfully headed off was the CEO who was kicking his puppy on video... the company's board of directors took swift action, and a PR crisis was averted.

If I were mediating such a dispute, I would first ask you what you would want to hear from the offenders, then I would communicate that to the offenders. Often, in my experience, an explanation, sincere contrition, and an apology is what is asked for. To humanize everyone in this process and make the offenders truly see how their actions have affected people is one possible way to resolution.

While the public is indeed owed an explanation of how this was resolved, they should not be entitled to be witness to the discussions that constitute real healing.

But the women involved say they didn't want "restorative justice" and only agreed because the only alternative is to go through the formal complaint process that they already rejected because they feared reprisals from the faculty.

"Tarnished"... meaning being associated to this thing by people who have nothing to do with it.

Well? Who's fault is that?

-k

Smallc · January 9, 2015

You can't simply reject the formal process because you're afraid. Processes are there to protect everyone involved. to consider ones self above that is to basically hang without a trial.

Black Dog · January 9, 2015

You can't simply reject the formal process because you're afraid. Processes are there to protect everyone involved. to consider ones self above that is to basically hang without a trial.

What a naive statement. Processes like this in places like that are about covering asses and managing liability, not justice or protection.

Michael Hardner · January 9, 2015

But the women involved say they didn't want "restorative justice" and only agreed because the only alternative is to go through the formal complaint process that they already rejected because they feared reprisals from the faculty.

Yes, I get that and it makes me sad that the institution tried to pull that.

Well? Who's fault is that?

I don't know about fault. I will say that such things need to be designed for involvement with identified individuals and groups according to how close they are to the issue.

TimG · January 9, 2015

Well? Who's fault is that?

It is the fault of the narrow minded lynch mob who are upset that an administrator did not immediately satisfy their demands for a hanging. Personally, the fact that the administrators attempted to follow a proper process makes Dalhousie look good.

Big Guy · January 9, 2015

Have the FB postings been documented and verified? Please forward where I might find a copy of the original postings so that I might judge for myself of how they should or could be interpreted. I trust nothing that is presented second or third hand. There are too many people with too many different agendas involved in this case.

That is why I would like to see this case to go to court then we could all judge the original evidence for ourselves.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Big Guy

Smallc · January 9, 2015

What a naive statement. Processes like this in places like that are about covering asses and managing liability, not justice or protection.

I'm talking about the formal complain process. If that doesn't work then the legal avenue is where to go. What would you suggest be done?

Smallc · January 9, 2015

It is the fault of the narrow minded lynch mob who are upset that an administrator did not immediately satisfy their demands for a hanging. Personally, the fact that the administrators attempted to follow a proper process makes Dalhousie look good.

I agree. I'm not sure what people expect. The facts need to be examined and the parties need to be involved before a decision can be reached.

overthere · January 9, 2015

I agree. I'm not sure what people expect. The facts need to be examined and the parties need to be involved before a decision can be reached.

A certain gent called Gomeshi is counting on that

cybercoma · January 9, 2015

the ones who didn't keep quiet, nobody believed.

-k

If only they were simply not believed, many of them were subjected to allegations that they were liars out to destroy these men's lives and other abusive rants from the internet tough-guy MRAs. These women were called liars, sluts, and whores. Some people went so far as to not even deny the allegations but instead say that the women deserved it because they should have expected it or were asking for it. Women who go public are abused again. Sadly they're not simply ignored.

cybercoma · January 9, 2015

I'm talking about the formal complain process. If that doesn't work then the legal avenue is where to go. What would you suggest be done?

You're the kind of person who would be mad at Rosa Parks during the Jim Crow era because she didn't follow the rules of sitting at the back of the bus. You would have criticized Ghandi for his disobedience too. Take half a second to recognize that sometimes the process can do more harm to victims than good. Since you're a staunch card-carrying Harper Conservative, I figured you would be all about the victims' rights. But then again, like a staunch Conservative, maybe you only care about white aging middle-class victims.

Smallc · January 9, 2015

Maybe you can construct a few more straw men and stuff them with red herrings. As probably the biggest advocate for full racial equality on this website, if it were up to me, those things never would have been necessary. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. In this case that means following the process as designed to protect both parties. Legal action is also an option - again, another process. I realize you have no respect for fairness of the law, but perhaps you could just hold off on the gallows for a bit.

Argus · January 10, 2015

What are you talking about? This thread is about dental students posting violent threats against their female colleagues.

No, it's about men posting suggesting, leering sexual talk about their female class mates. No threats were made. I get that the women involved would be extremely uncomfortable and angry, and I'm not saying they weren't morons for posting it. But we have to realize such talk goes on every day in every university in the world. As I said before, any reasonably attractive young woman would certainly have been the subject of such conversations often during her school career. It's just that she never heard about it.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Argus