Black Dog Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) You think your metrosexual, delicate, oh-so-sensitive version of male sexuality is the norm because it is in academia and largely in media, but in real life there are a lot of guys like Louis CK, and not that many Seinfelds. God I love it when old guys try to be hip with current pop culture references that blow up in their face. Louis CK's entire shtick is built around his self-loathing at being imprisoned by masculine norms. He knows the shit he feels is base and gross and is disgusted by it, but he's a product of the culture and can't change. His relationship with sexual expectations placed on men is nuanced and complicated. He sure as shit doesn't celebrate the worst instincts and expectations the way you do. Perhaps you are thinking of Andrew Dice Clay? I think your version of 'violence' is not what most men would take to be violent. I'd like to think most men would think fantasies about chloroforming women so as to have sex with them are violent. But again, I have higher expectations of men than you. Edited January 8, 2015 by Black Dog Quote
cybercoma Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Actually, I'm thinking that some of you live a very sheltered life. The only people who are sheltered are those who live in a echo chamber where this kind of appalling behaviour is even remotely acceptable. Perhaps talking about raping women is hilarious and a turn on for you, but it's not any more acceptable than fantasizing about murdering people and making public statements about that. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 So where is the criminal trial and prosecution, the charges, the evidence? Why are there laws about threatening to kill someone, but not about threatening to rape them? Quote
cybercoma Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Because of those differences, talking about workplace rules between us is difficult, IMO. How difficult is it to say that it's appalling behaviour to publicly fantasize about hatefucking and raping colleagues? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 How difficult is it to say that it's appalling behaviour to publicly fantasize about hatefucking and raping colleagues? I don't think that that is difficult to say. The arguable element appears to be what constitutes 'public' here. I would say posting something on facebook is expresionalistically identical to making a poster with your name on it and tacking it to the outside of your house. Others may disagree. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 I don't think that that is difficult to say. The arguable element appears to be what constitutes 'public' here. I would say posting something on facebook is expresionalistically identical to making a poster with your name on it and tacking it to the outside of your house. Others may disagree. Regardless, is it less appalling in private? If someone privately plots to kill someone is that better than publicly musing about it? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Regardless, is it less appalling in private? If someone privately plots to kill someone is that better than publicly musing about it? Plotting to kill somebody vs fantasizing is the difference. I hang around some edgy people who joke about things that wouldn't fly if they posted it online, or stated it in mixed company, or in a professional environment. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 The only people who are sheltered are those who live in a echo chamber where this kind of appalling behaviour is even remotely acceptable. Perhaps talking about raping women is hilarious and a turn on for you, but it's not any more acceptable than fantasizing about murdering people and making public statements about that. It's definitely not a turn on for me, but it is for many men. Similarly, fantasies involving dominance and pain are very much a turn on for many people. The difference is, I'm not going to pretend that isn't the case. Why are there laws about threatening to kill someone, but not about threatening to rape them? Who threatened to do anything? I don't think that that is difficult to say. The arguable element appears to be what constitutes 'public' here. I would say posting something on facebook is expresionalistically identical to making a poster with your name on it and tacking it to the outside of your house. Others may disagree. And I don't necessarily think that either of those things should result in action, outside of a few examples. Regardless, is it less appalling in private? If someone privately plots to kill someone is that better than publicly musing about it? Nice straw man you're building. Plotting to kill somebody vs fantasizing is the difference. I hang around some edgy people who joke about things that wouldn't fly if they posted it online, or stated it in mixed company, or in a professional environment. Exactly. Quote
Black Dog Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 It's definitely not a turn on for me, but it is for many men. Similarly, fantasies involving dominance and pain are very much a turn on for many people. The difference is, I'm not going to pretend that isn't the case. These weren't sexual fantasies and you should really stop pretending they were. It was a form of aggressive locker room banter that betrayed a stunning lack of maturity and thoughtfulness on the part of a bunch of grown-ass men. Again: private sexual fantasies are one thing, this is quite another. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Trying to turn this into a narrative about sexual fantasies is ridiculous. These were adult graduate students, not little boys, who already completed one university degree and were near completion of another. They were musing about criminal behaviour, not sexual fantasies. Rendering someone unconscious so you can screw them against their will is not normal. It's not legal. And there's absolutely no rational human being that would condone such a thing. It's disgusting that anyone would find this even remotely acceptable. Edited January 8, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
Smallc Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Again: private sexual fantasies are one thing, this is quite another. You're right - this is the public display of said fantasies. Nothing more. Quote
jacee Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) You're right - this is the public display of said fantasies. Nothing more.smallc are you avoiding acknowledging that these violent "fantasies" were posted with photos as threats against specific female classmates ?Are you really saying that violent public threats of rape against specific women are to be to be accepted as 'normal' behaviour for all men? . Edited January 8, 2015 by jacee Quote
Smallc Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 No one threatened rape. These are violent fantasies targeted at certain people that should have stayed private. Quote
jacee Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) No one threatened rape. These are violent fantasies targeted at certain people that should have stayed private.They were public threats against specific innocent women whose photos were published with the threats.I wonder what your reaction and that of other men would have been if these 'men' had published similar violent threats against other men? And you didn't answer: Are you saying we are all to accept that such behaviour is normal, acceptable for men? . Edited January 8, 2015 by jacee Quote
Smallc Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Who actually said they were going to go out and do any of those things? If there was criminal activity, the police would be involved. Quote
jacee Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Who actually said they were going to go out and do any of those things? If there was criminal activity, the police would be involved. I hope there will be yet. Some of the women aren't participating in the university's 'justice' cover up process. . Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 I hope there will be yet. Some of the women aren't participating in the university's 'justice' cover up process. . The women who were directly affected by these posts have written an open letter to the President of Dalhousie: "They do not wish for the sexual harassment and discrimination perpetrated by members of our class to be dealt with through this restorative justice process." The university is pressuring us into this process, silencing our views, isolating us from our peers, and discouraging us from choosing to proceed formally," "Telling us that we can either participate in restorative justice or file a formal complaint is presenting us with a false choice. We have serious concerns about the impact of filing formal complaints on our chances of academic success at the faculty of dentistry, and believe that doing so would jeopardize our futures," they wrote. "The reason we have not filed formal complaints is also the reason we have not signed our names to this letter." And now, the Canadian Dental Society are stating that any students graduating from this program must disclose whether they were involved in these incidents since the University will not give up the names of the students involved. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Michael Hardner Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 If they were railroaded into this process then that's as bad as the original offense, in that it's a forced cover-up, attempt to silence people. That's very sad to hear. I liked the idea of Truth & Reconciliation, for the aspect that it takes a human problem and gives it to the people involved to solve. There are aspects of 'the process' of dealing with complaints that dehumanizing for all involved. But it has to be voluntary. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 The women who were directly affected by these posts have written an open letter to the President of Dalhousie: "They do not wish for the sexual harassment and discrimination perpetrated by members of our class to be dealt with through this restorative justice process." The university is pressuring us into this process, silencing our views, isolating us from our peers, and discouraging us from choosing to proceed formally," "Telling us that we can either participate in restorative justice or file a formal complaint is presenting us with a false choice. We have serious concerns about the impact of filing formal complaints on our chances of academic success at the faculty of dentistry, and believe that doing so would jeopardize our futures," they wrote. "The reason we have not filed formal complaints is also the reason we have not signed our names to this letter." And now, the Canadian Dental Society are stating that any students graduating from this program must disclose whether they were involved in these incidents since the University will not give up the names of the students involved. What alternative would they like to see? Either file a complaint, go with the established process. Quote
jacee Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Call the police. If they fear retaliation by the university, a third party investigation is necessary. The police/AG should already be considering whether charges are warranted. They don't need a complainant. . Quote
Big Guy Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Posted January 8, 2015 Was there ever an indication that a law was broken? Again, I would like to see and read the original statements on that Facebook page. I do not trust the second hand information that we are getting and told what was posted. The University is also in a precarious position. If it decides to expel the accused students (by the way, what are they accused of?) then it better have a very good and legal excuse because we know there will be law suits to show cause. Except for a couple of female students and a whole lot of outsiders with an agenda, everybody wants this to just go away. What then happens if there is a police investigation and they find that no law was broken? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Argus, for example, considers his work-mates "friends". While my workplace is very friendly and vibrant, the typical turnover period for an employee is 1-year so a very defined set of behaviors has naturally evolved in my workplace that is inclusive of strangers, A turnover like that strongly suggest a poisonous workplace where nobody wants to stay. My friends at work were and in many cases remain my friends. I still see them, still go over to their houses, and they to mine. I still text and email them literally every day. We still exchange birthday and Christmas visits and presents. When my idiot doctor mixed up a prescription set for me a couple of years ago and I got taken to hospital the first people there were these ex-colleagues I hadn't worked with in years. I pity a workplace full of strangers like yours. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 God I love it when old guys try to be hip with current pop culture references that blow up in their face. God, I love it when people trumpet how great their victory is and it's always in their own heads. Louis CK's entire shtick is built around his self-loathing at being imprisoned by masculine norms. He knows the shit he feels is base and gross and is disgusted by it, but he's a product of the culture and can't change. His relationship with sexual expectations placed on men is nuanced and complicated. He sure as shit doesn't celebrate the worst instincts and expectations the way you do. You completely miss his point. You also complete miss my point. I don't think you actually are capable of seeing clearly through that ideological straight jacket your mind wears. I have not once 'celebrated' anything these guys have done. I defy you to show me where I have. All I've pointed out is that these sorts of thoughts and conversations are NORMAL among men, and the hysteria you and others here are putting out is just so strongly indicative of you having no real knowledge of ordinary men and what they're like. Perhaps you are thinking of Andrew Dice Clay? Now who's dating themselves? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 You're right - this is the public display of said fantasies. Nothing more. An accidentally public display. You can say whatever you want about their technical understanding of how Facebook works but do you honestly think any of those guys would have posted that if they suspected for a moment their female classmates would be able to read it? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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