Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

[Argus]

"Telling us that we can either participate in restorative justice or file a formal complaint is presenting us with a false choice. We have serious concerns about the impact of filing formal complaints on our chances of academic success at the faculty of dentistry, and believe that doing so would jeopardize our futures," they wrote.

That's hysterical! They're upset at being given choices of what to do and afraid if they do something it'll endanger their careers?!

So what do they want, these guys to be shot at dawn and their bodies thrown into the ocean?

"The reason we have not filed formal complaints is also the reason we have not signed our names to this letter."

Ahhh, so an anonymous letter which could easily have been written by you. Hookay.

[jacee]

Was there ever an indication that a law was broken? Again, I would like to see and read the original statements on that Facebook page. I do not trust the second hand information that we are getting and told what was posted.

The University is also in a precarious position. If it decides to expel the accused students (by the way, what are they accused of?) then it better have a very good and legal excuse because we know there will be law suits to show cause.

Except for a couple of female students and a whole lot of outsiders with an agenda, everybody wants this to just go away.

What then happens if there is a police investigation and they find that no law was broken?

The perps could be expelled following Dal's own investigation, with no public disclosure of accusations or any proceedings.

It's the police's job to figure out if crimes were committed, and Crown council.

.

[Black Dog]

God, I love it when people trumpet how great their victory is and it's always in their own heads.

I wasn't trumpeting a victory. I was laughing at your attempt to seem "with it".

You completely miss his point.

Do go on.

You also complete miss my point. I don't think you actually are capable of seeing clearly through that ideological straight jacket your mind wears. I have not once 'celebrated' anything these guys have done. I defy you to show me where I have. All I've pointed out is that these sorts of thoughts and conversations are NORMAL among men, and the hysteria you and others here are putting out is just so strongly indicative of you having no real knowledge of ordinary men and what they're like.

For all the whinging you're doing here, you seem to have missed the part where I completely understand that these sorts of thoughts and conversations are depressingly normal. The difference is I think we can do better. You don't.

As for whether you celebrate it, it's in every purile sneer you level at other posters for their lack of masculinity for finding theses idiot's actions out of line or distasteful. It's clear that you think this kind of thing isn't simply a normal expression of masculinity: it is the only legitimate one. Don't think jokes about drugging women to rape them are hilarious? What are you, some kind of homo?

Now who's dating themselves?

I was just providing a reference you'd actually understand.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Black Dog

[Big Guy]

But would their investigation not have to prove which students did what and that what they did is grounds for expulsion? There is a lot of future earning power involved here. I am sure that a decision of expulsion would be challenged in the open court of law.

What criteria might the University cite as grounds for dismissal?

[Smallc]

An accidentally public display. You can say whatever you want about their technical understanding of how Facebook works but do you honestly think any of those guys would have posted that if they suspected for a moment their female classmates would be able to read it?

You're probably right.

[Michael Hardner]

A turnover like that strongly suggest a poisonous workplace where nobody wants to stay.

Every company in my field is like that.

[jacee]

But would their investigation not have to prove which students did what and that what they did is grounds for expulsion? There is a lot of future earning power involved here. I am sure that a decision of expulsion would be challenged in the open court of law.

What criteria might the University cite as grounds for dismissal?

The U wouldn't cite anything publicly. It's a private proceeding.

I suppose the perps could sue the U for damages, but they'd be putting their transgressions on trial in public for the court to determine whether expulsion was justified.

I'd like to see it public.

.

[cybercoma]

It's clear that you think this kind of thing isn't simply a normal expression of masculinity: it is the only legitimate one. Don't think jokes about drugging women to rape them are hilarious? What are you, some kind of homo?

More to the point he throws around feminizations as insults, which highlights the same kind of misogynistic mentality that perpetuates violence against women.

[TimG]

I wonder how long it will be before ante gets upped for these kinds of transgressions from death of career to death by assault rifle. The incidents in France illustrate why people who obsess about rude words are the real problem and the real threat to civil society.

Edited January 9, 2015 by TimG

[cybercoma]

I wonder how long it will be before ante gets upped for these kinds of transgressions from death of career to death by assault rifle. The incidents in France illustrate why people who obsess about rude words are the real problem and the real threat to civil society.

It's telling that you'll wonder that before you wonder whether these knuckle-dragging neanderthals would actually act on their violent fantasies.

[WestCoastRunner]

I wonder how long it will be before ante gets upped for these kinds of transgressions from death of career to death by assault rifle. The incidents in France illustrate why people who obsess about rude words are the real problem and the real threat to civil society.

Honestly, you are comparing these FB posts to France.....

Last I heard, Canada didn't have the death penalty and the real threat are these vicious and violent threads towards women (who by the way, live in a civil society). For the life of me, I can't figure out why you guys can't see this.

[cybercoma]

Honestly, you are comparing these FB posts to France.....

No. He's comparing our reaction to terrorism because he thinks in strawmen, I guess.

[WestCoastRunner]

Was there ever an indication that a law was broken? Again, I would like to see and read the original statements on that Facebook page. I do not trust the second hand information that we are getting and told what was posted.

Why don't you google and do some of your own research on this issue.

[WestCoastRunner]

That's hysterical! They're upset at being given choices of what to do and afraid if they do something it'll endanger their careers?!

So what do they want, these guys to be shot at dawn and their bodies thrown into the ocean?

Ahhh, so an anonymous letter which could easily have been written by you. Hookay.

A while back in this thread, you did point out that these women were ok with restorative justice but now that they say they really weren't, you all of a sudden are attacking them for their reasons. hmmmmmmm Because of course their reasons go against your judgement of this whole issue.

And of course I wrote the letter. You have me all figured me out! I am a man-hating radical feminist. Good for you.

[WestCoastRunner]

No. He's comparing our reaction to terrorism because he thinks in strawmen, I guess.

Really! What does this thread have to do with France.

[WestCoastRunner]

A turnover like that strongly suggest a poisonous workplace where nobody wants to stay.

My friends at work were and in many cases remain my friends. I still see them, still go over to their houses, and they to mine. I still text and email them literally every day. We still exchange birthday and Christmas visits and presents. When my idiot doctor mixed up a prescription set for me a couple of years ago and I got taken to hospital the first people there were these ex-colleagues I hadn't worked with in years.

I pity a workplace full of strangers like yours.

The problem with your Utopian workplace environment is that when female employees are being sexually harassed by 'friends of managers' they do not typically want to rock the boat and voice their concerns for fear of reprisals as I have mentioned in other threads.

Managers need to maintain a firm line between themselves and the empoyees they supervise for many reasons including the one I mention above.

[Bonam]

... they do not typically want to rock the boat ...

Sounds like a personal problem. No one ever gets anywhere without rocking a few boats.

[TimG]

Last I heard, Canada didn't have the death penalty and the real threat are these vicious and violent threads towards women (who by the way, live in a civil society). For the life of me, I can't figure out why you guys can't see this.

You either believe in free speech or you don't. If you can't tolerate rude/vile posts on facebook then why should some Muslim fanatic listen when you say they should respect free speech when it comes to Allah? The trouble with people who rationalize restricting free speech is they always assume they will be the ones deciding who gets punished for saying the wrong things. The world does not work that way. People who support restricting free speech based on what they find offensive create an environment that will lead to the silencing of voices they consider to be legitimate. Standing up for free speech means standing up for speech that you disagree with it. Edited January 9, 2015 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

You either believe in free speech or you don't. If you can't tolerate rude/vile posts on facebook then why should some Muslim fanatic listen when you say they should respect free speech when it comes to Allah? The trouble with people who rationalize restricting free speech is they always assume they will be the ones deciding who gets punished for saying the wrong things. The world does not work that way. People who support restricting free speech based on what they find offensive create an environment that will lead to the silencing of voices they consider to be legitimate. Standing up for free speech means standing up for speech that you disagree with it.

What are you talking about? This thread is about dental students posting violent threats against their female colleagues. What on earth does this have to do with Muslim fanatics and free speech? Honestly, I think some of you posters are trolls.

[WestCoastRunner]

Sounds like a personal problem. No one ever gets anywhere without rocking a few boats.

You missed the point completely, but I get that.

[Smallc]

There were no threats posted. This is, in fact, a speech issue.

[WestCoastRunner]

There were no threats posted. This is, in fact, a speech issue.

Sure it is. After what happened in France apparently. Good grief.

Edited January 9, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[TimG]

What are you talking about? This thread is about dental students posting violent threats against their female colleagues. What on earth does this have to do with Muslim fanatics and free speech?

Both cases are examples of thin skinned zealots demanding excessive responses to rude words. Supporting the expulsion of students and the destruction of their careers is not that different from Muslims gunning down people. In both cases the intent is to extract vengeance on people who offend them. It is not about justice. It is about intimidation with the intent to scare others into silence. Edited January 9, 2015 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

Both cases are examples of thin skinned zealots demanding excessive responses to rude words. Supporting the expulsion of students and the destruction of their careers is not that different from Muslims gunning down people. In both cases the intent is to extract vengeance on people who offend them. It is not about justice. It is about intimidation with the intent to scare others into silence.

It is absolutely about justice. Here are some quotes from the medical profession:

These “gentlemen” as they called themselves on the abhorrent Facebook page, were not boys, but men wrapping up a minimum of eight years of postsecondary study, and months away from earning the title of doctor, with all the public trust that entails. For this doctor, it was not about whether they would really “chloroform ” women, as they joked or have sex with women until they were “unconscious.” (They also voted on female peers worthy of “hate” sex.) The men involved demonstrated a lack of maturity and good judgment required for their profession.

"These are not drunken 18-year-old frosh saying stupid things, with years left to mature into their chosen fields. This was not boyish locker-room hijinks, as the participants themselves described it. If these men had posted these comments mere months from now, their professional bodies would be dealing with them. (According to the Canadian dentistry code of ethics, adopted by provinces, a dentist shall represent himself or herself in a manner that contributes to the public’s trust and confidence in the profession.)

When they chose a career with big responsibility, they accepted being held to a high standard of behaviour."

So, let's stop pretending these are high school immature boys.

In closing:

Those men who were truly stupid enough to post sexist and abusive comments in a public forum, gave up their right to privacy, and, arguably, the right to be trusted with the tools of their trade. Feel sympathy, if you must, for years of hard work potentially thrown away. In the end, when the facts are laid out, we may be thankful they outed themselves before anyone had to call them “Dr.”

[Bonam]

You missed the point completely, but I get that.

No, I refused to acknowledge the validity of your point. Being "scared to rock a boat" is a lame excuse for letting "sexual predators" go undetected and having other women be victimized by them in the future. If someone is doing something inappropriate, nip it in the bud, anything else is cowardly and selfish. Why do you expect men to take all the responsibility for everything, while women can't even be expected to report misconduct when they see it?

As for missing points... the one about free speech seems to be escaping you completely. Rape jokes might be offensive to you, and Mohammed jokes are offensive to Muslims. Neither one is a valid reason to do anything but calm the heck down and realize that society has jokes you might not like.