First Nations Issues

[Moonbox]

Yeah, Canadiens are pretty much told the same thing prior to an election.

Nope, not at all.

They are at home raising their children. Hunting and fishing to eat. Trapping to pay the bills. Repairing their homes/vehicles and trying very hard to do something, anything to ensure their survival. If they miss a chance their kids will starve. Unaware of whats happening in the world. Our only source of communication is the radio and it used to be TV when we would get a signal but that changed a few years ago. Now it's just radio.

It has to be more than that. Struggling to get by is not a plight that's unique to the natives. It can't be simply that they're too busy to pay attention to the crooks stealing from them. These sorts of conditions were ripe breeding grounds for questions being asked and for change everywhere in the world, before and after radio, internet, tv or even newspapers.

[PrimeNumber]

It has to be more than that. Struggling to get by is not a plight that's unique to the natives. It can't be simply that they're too busy to pay attention to the crooks stealing from them. These sorts of conditions were ripe breeding grounds for questions being asked and for change everywhere in the world, before and after radio, internet, tv or even newspapers.

How many reserves have you ever been on?

[Moonbox]

How many reserves have you ever been on?

How is your question relevant to my comment and conclusion?

[WestCoastRunner]

Aboriginal Man, you say you live on a reservation with your family. Is that correct? If so, why do you continue to live there (what keeps you there)? Have you thought about moving off the reservation and assimilating into the rest of the population (do you see any advantages to this)?

Edited December 11, 2014 by WestCoastRunner

[PrimeNumber]

How is your question relevant to my comment and conclusion?

Because if you have seen it first hand you might have the faintest clue what your talking about. There's numerous times when people have been taken advantage of by their leaders throughout history and have been able to do nothing without outside help. Pick up a book and read up on some world history.

"Oh why don't they just stand up and tell them to bugger off"

- Said every homer looking from the outside in throughout history

[Moonbox]

Because if you have seen it first hand you might have the faintest clue what your talking about. There's numerous times when people have been taken advantage of by their leaders throughout history and have been able to do nothing without outside help. Pick up a book and read up on some world history.

I guess you missed my previous post (on this page) where I said:

Struggling to get by is not a plight that's unique to the natives....These sorts of conditions were ripe breeding grounds for questions being asked and for change everywhere in the world, before and after radio, internet, tv or even newspapers.

What's uniquely interesting about aboriginals in Canada, however, is that outside help is mistrusted and vigorously resisted. When the people who are sending support money to the reserves are saying that band leaders are abusing trust and essentially stealing the money, something insane is happening. Rather than getting angry at the band leaders, the band members are getting angry at the people who are sending the money that's being stolen, telling them to mind their own business and bugger off.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Moonbox

[WestCoastRunner]

I have spoken before of members from different backgrounds contributing to this forum and it's great to have AboriginalMan contributing. As the saying goes, 'let's hear from the horse's mouth'.

We can spout off all we want with our perceived expertise but it is so refreshing to hear from those who actually experience living on reservations. For most of us, we can only speculate.

Edited December 11, 2014 by WestCoastRunner

[Michael Hardner]

Keep hammering away at and demanding transparency transparency transparency at every opportunity and at every level of government and authority on the planet. Keep goading the sycophants and toadies and drawi them out into the open so their ridiculous attitudes can be seen and understood for what they represent, which is just more of the same.

It's us vs them, the ruled vs the rulers and the struggle is happening all around the planet. You're definitely not alone.

Well said !

I think the government should offer incentives to organizations and individuals who opt in for more transparent financial transactions. Something like putting all of it online, with an offer of extra benefits for doing so. The transparency would provide benefits by creating a true public that would watch where the money goes.

[Michael Hardner]

I have spoken before of members from different backgrounds contributing to this forum and it's great to have AboriginalMan contributing. As the saying goes, 'let's hear from the horse's mouth'.

We can spout off all we want with our perceived expertise but it is so refreshing to hear from those who actually experience living on reservations. For most of us, we can only speculate.

Hear, hear. Many think that MLW is here for us to convince others of our opinions, but I prefer to think of it as a place where I can educate myself by directly interacting with people whom I will never meet: First Nations people, conservatives from Toronto's suburbs and places even further west than that, Quebec separatists, American Bush Cheney supporters and so on....

It's rare to change somebody's mind, and my mind has only been changed significantly a few times from these conversations. But every day I learn more and more, and my understanding of our world is edified.

[Big Guy]

If you believed everybody on this board then we have a teacher who speaks for all teachers, an aboriginal who speaks for all aboriginals, a Jew who speaks for all Jews, a soldier who speaks for all soldiers, ... etc.

As far as I am concerned, these are all anonymous posters who choose to stay anonymous. They speak for no one but for that anonymous persona which they have created and to give credence to their speaking for any group has to be laughingly naïve.

There are a few posters here whose presentations I read because they are well researched, well thought out, state their case concisely and make it clear that they are expressing only their own opinions. To take at face value what a poster who chooses to remain anonymous as to who, what, where they are is unbelievable.

This is why naïve little girls get involved with Internet predators - not a process to which informed adults should give credibility.

[Argus]

Good question. We can, however, probably conclude that the lack of interest/action on the part of the ordinary natives demonstrates that they're either against the government on this, or they just have their heads buried so deep in the sand that they don't care.

I disagree. I think they care but don't know what to do. Challenging the chief on a small reserve leaves you open to a lot of bad cess.

[Argus]

So when I suggest economic sanctions against dictatorships instead of trade deals and handshakes you'll have my back right?

I'm suggesting empowering the citizenry to know what's going on. How does that relate to economic sanctions? Have I suggested economic sanctions against reserves?

[Argus]

They just picked a new chief of chiefs down the street here in Winnipeg LMFAO.

"Canada is Indian land."

No, buddy, it's not, and this continued racial purity mentality on the part of a lot of the band chiefs is not conducive to anyone wanting to deal with them on an honest basis.

[Moonbox]

I disagree. I think they care but don't know what to do. Challenging the chief on a small reserve leaves you open to a lot of bad cess.

Perhaps, but the suggests that these small reserves are run by the chief like their own petty kingdoms. There's no shortage of examples in world of this system of government failing at the hands of the people. Opposing doesn't mean you need to unilaterally call him out as a crook. You'd have to assume aboriginals talk among themselves and could organize an opposition, unless of course the reserves have their own versions of the KGB.

[Accountability Now]

That is a convoluted post. Not to mention finally clears up the misnomers.

So its convoluted but it clears things up. LMFAO. Which is it? Or do you know what convoluted means?

Work off Rez, pay taxes like anyone else.

They would pay income tax like everyone else but would still not have to pay GST or provincial tax for goods they buy on the reserve. They also wouldn't be paying property tax. Again...like I said from the beginning...its viewed as an incentive to save on some taxes. Is it truely worthwhile...probably not but it does exist.

Oh facepalm.

You said they offered to buy the car for you. They were buying it and selling it to you. It means you would have to pay the tax. Got it?

Lol. You don't get it. They would buy the car and not pay GST. They would drive the car to the reserve. Take a picture of it on the reserve. And then turn around and sell it to me for the same price they bought it for which would NOT include GST. So no....I would not pay the tax. Got it?

Im getting that you cant or wont follow along.

Trying to deal with your inability to comprehend does make it challenging.

Has anyone said otherwise? Nope !If thats the standard, then any FN buying an ice cream cone and forgets his Status card, he pays tax, and that tax means he/she 'IS indirectly paying for that property healthcare tax.'

Yes...you did. I like the way you cross off property tax even though that is EXACTLY the tax we were talkign about. You said some renters are paying it and MANY aren't. You then went trying to explain it with your shortfall explantion but again shortfalls only reduce taxable income....not property tax. Hence...what are you talking about??

As for your recent strawman example, I like how you find the most remote possibilty and think that discounts my point. How about the other 99.99% of the time the FN bring their status cards. Or how about when they just buy it on the reserve. For the most part they receive a tax benefit from living on the reserve. Plain and simple.

You see, here is what bogs things down. Whats with the "if they cant find ..." ? Do you mean if they elect NOT to work on the reserve or does that apply if they can get $30 an hour off Rez, theyll turn it down for $10 on Rez work? And what happens to those with two jobs, 1 off 1 on?

I meant what I said....if they can't find work then they are forced outside the reserve and don't have a choice. Your scenario is another possibily where they will make more money outside the reserve and will then give up the benefit of tax free income in order to find gainful employment. In either scenario they would pay income tax but they would still not pay property tax or GST on reserve. All in all, there are tax benefits to living on reserves no matter how many scenarios you want to throw out.

SO tell us, who of those in school pay taxes....anywhere in Canada? Students have an exemption , some get the credit but they are not paying taxes like anyone else working full time. (assuming the hours are low for student) Along the same lines they arent paying any healthtax but do pay sales taxes which are used for healthcare.

Yes people who go to school don't pay income tax but what does this have to do with the tax benefits on the reserve? People also get tax benefits for having kids or for medical reason. Businesses get all sorts of tax breaks. None of these things negate the fact that there are tax breaks by living on the reserve. This is a fact....of course don't let my facts get in the way of your issues.

The funny part is that I didn't even speak negatively about the tax breaks or education? I didn't say they weren't deserved. I said I've heard of FN staying on reserves because of these benefits which AGAIN I feel is not a good deal considering the other crap they have to put up with. But of course, you got your knickers in a bunch and decided to rant and rave trying to come up with some scenario that proved I was wrong. However, I'm not. There are benefits of living on the reserve. Not good ones but benefits nonetheless.

Curious though, when you talk of education, are you being exclusive to elementary and high school, or higher education?

How about you read the link that I provided and you will get that answer.

[Accountability Now]

Not more money, there's enough money in the reserves to pave the damned streets gold.

I don't know about this. There are a lot of urban legends that make their way around the internet talking about trillions in the reserve. When I last looked at the government audit, it showed about 1.5 billion. If you took that money and divided it amongst the 1 million or so FN people, that would mean about $1500 per person. Not much of an incentive especially if you are reaping some of the rewards like the Onion Lake band or the BC Okanagon bands.

I think the buyout would have to be fairly intense and involve a comprehensive transition which would include education, training and other resources for a period of time as well as a wack load of cash. Of course the catch to all this would be knowing that there would be an end game to the current system and future claims. Perhaps the fear of knowing there is no 'fall back' position would actually be incentive enough.

[Accountability Now]

If you believed everybody on this board then we have a teacher who speaks for all teachers, an aboriginal who speaks for all aboriginals, a Jew who speaks for all Jews, a soldier who speaks for all soldiers, ... etc.

As far as I am concerned, these are all anonymous posters who choose to stay anonymous. They speak for no one but for that anonymous persona which they have created and to give credence to their speaking for any group has to be laughingly naïve.

There are a few posters here whose presentations I read because they are well researched, well thought out, state their case concisely and make it clear that they are expressing only their own opinions. To take at face value what a poster who chooses to remain anonymous as to who, what, where they are is unbelievable.

This is why naïve little girls get involved with Internet predators - not a process to which informed adults should give credibility.

Amen Big Guy. So true....

[guyser]

So its convoluted but it clears things up. LMFAO. Which is it? Or do you know what convoluted means?

Convoluted in the first part cleared up on the second.

They would pay income tax like everyone else but would still not have to pay GST or provincial tax for goods they buy on the reserve. They also wouldn't be paying property tax. Again...like I said from the beginning...its viewed as an incentive to save on some taxes. Is it truely worthwhile...probably not but it does exist.

Of the 600 or so bands, 20% of them pay property tax. Sorry, your falacies are not true. A Corp set up on reserve is not a Status Indian therefore pays all taxes.

Lol. You don't get it. They would buy the car and not pay GST. They would drive the car to the reserve. Take a picture of it on the reserve. And then turn around and sell it to me for the same price they bought it for which would NOT include GST. So no....I would not pay the tax. Got it?

Yup got it.

Get this though.....its illegal.

They are only exempt if the vehicle is sold on or delivered to a reserve by the service provider.

And if you are not a status indian, then of course you pay all the taxes, it has to re-registered in your name.

Trying to deal with your inability to comprehend does make it challenging.

Lets see, so far in this one post you are 0 for 2.

Wanna taslk comprehension? LOL!

Yes...you did. I like the way you cross off property tax even though that is EXACTLY the tax we were talkign about. You said some renters are paying it and MANY aren't. You then went trying to explain it with your shortfall explantion but again shortfalls only reduce taxable income....not property tax. Hence...what are you talking about??

Oh okay, its a comprehension problem thats stopping you.

Ok then

The idea of me crossing it off was to illustrate your minor point. If they pay some taxes, then they are paying tax that suppports helathcare and the like. Even if they buy an ice cream cone.

And property tax is paid by the owner. His cost increase for insurance and a few other things. The market dictates rent,ergo the cost of carrying a house to rent out may exceed the income of rent. But the idea is the market value will go up and there is the profit. The rent is paid for the use of the house and really no Prop Tax is paid by the renter. Unless you want to make a case that the renter also pays for the owners new wardrobe and slippers since the owner may buy those things out of funds from rent.

As for your recent strawman example, I like how you find the most remote possibilty and think that discounts my point.

You introduced ut and it got used against you. Dont whine to me for that.

How about you read the link that I provided and you will get that answer.

What link?

[overthere]

I recall hearing of a particular treaty process meeting of the people of the Nuu-Chah-Nulth First Nations whose territory I'm grateful to call home. The issue of cronyism and corruption came up in a discussion and what the people could do about it and a young self-styled Nuu Chah Nulth warrior standing at the back of the long house reminded people that sometimes in the past if certain chiefs stepped too far out of line that the warriors would step in and restore balance.

Brave words that I certainly can't find too much fault with but I think they would be foolish to think Ottawa will offer much support, where after all do you think so much present day corruption gets it's inspiration from?

In fact, Aboriginal Development spends a lot of time mediating disputes in First Nations over governance and elections.

There are over 600 First Nations in Canada, and certainly not all of them are at peace with each other. In many cases, the dispute is about the very same things we white people see as problems in their management of their affairs. Imagine that.

A thankless job for AD, as you can also imagine.

eta: I think a troll may be afoot here.

Edited December 12, 2014 by overthere

[Accountability Now]

Of the 600 or so bands, 20% of them pay property tax. Sorry, your falacies are not true. A Corp set up on reserve is not a Status Indian therefore pays all taxes.

This is priceless. First and foremost, I love how you think that because you show that because 20% have property tax, that it somehow means that 80% don't. Lets test your math....which is the significantly larger number of the two? Now...about your 20%...do you know who they charge the property tax to? People on reserve leasing out their space to non-aborginal leaseholders. Most of the bands that have a property tax strategy in place are located close to municipalities where they lease space to companies or people from the muncipality. As such they are taxing non-aborginals...not members of the reserve. Various bands also have their own GST which again is to gain tax revenue by charging non-aboriginal people that use their lands such as in the Kamloops. Both strategies to have outside money brought into the reserve which I think are smart on their part.

As for the corporations paying taxes. Corportations owned by the band do not pay taxes if 90% of their work is done off the reserve since they are treated the same as local municaplities. The stipulation on this is that the band has to prove they are offering municipal services to qualify. In the end this 90% rule makes it very much like a native that lives on the reserve but works off reserve....they would both pay income tax in that scenario.

Get this though.....its illegal.

They are only exempt if the vehicle is sold on or delivered to a reserve by the service provider.

I guess you don't get it! Its not illegal. The status indian on the reserve buys the vehicle. He can either have it delivered or provide a point of exemption that allows him to not pay the GST. He drives the vehicle which is registered in his name and after a few days turns and sells it to me (or anyone else) as a 'used' vehicle. The same tactic is used when buying new vehicles in the US and avoiding sales tax. I have never done these myself but know of others that have.

And if you are not a status indian, then of course you pay all the taxes, it has to re-registered in your name.

And if you're not Chinese you pay all the taxes too. What the hell do non-status Indians have to do with a conversation when we are talking about status indians? Do you create these scenarios to deflect from the fact that you can't understand the argument?

Lets see, so far in this one post you are 0 for 2.

I'm not sure what is worse...you poor comprhension, lack of math skills or your deluded sense of reality. Maybe they are all equally as bad.

Wanna taslk comprehension? LOL!

Please....if you're going to trash talk about comprehension then at least spell your words correctly when you are trash talking.

And property tax is paid by the owner. His cost increase for insurance and a few other things. The market dictates rent,ergo the cost of carrying a house to rent out may exceed the income of rent. But the idea is the market value will go up and there is the profit. The rent is paid for the use of the house and really no Prop Tax is paid by the renter. Unless you want to make a case that the renter also pays for the owners new wardrobe and slippers since the owner may buy those things out of funds from rent.

You really have no idea about business do you. There are costs of doing business and revenues that you charge out to cover those costs and hopefully make a profit. When the landlord charges a final rent value it consists of various costs that typically look like this:

Total Payment = Rent + Property Tax + Building Insurance.

The property tax is actually spelled out as a cost passed on to the renter in most agreements.

The rent portion typically covers the mortgage costs and other costs of owning the building in an ammortized rate as well as a significantly higher percentage on top to provide an ROI. At the end of the day, the landlord will absolutely cover the cost of property taxes and insurance and if he's smart he will at least break even on the mortgage. Of course, that is assuming they are all smart. If they make a profit then they get to buy new slippers as you say but not until the costs like property tax are covered.

What link?

Come on...do I really need to hold your hand on this. Put your reading skills to the test and look though my past posts. I'll give you a hint, the link will be a bunch of words that has a line underneath it.

[LemonPureLeaf]

In looks to me that he government is doing a disservice to the people who live on reserves. The people on reserves are lacking the services needed no matter how much money the government gives them. Maybe it would be better if the government simply paid the bands and bought all the reserves back from them and forced the Natives to join the civilized society, pay taxes, get proper jobs and live as we do. I think the current concept has bred the Natives to come to depend on the government for the handouts and this has made them largely dependent, which is sad and a form of control or slavery if you will.

As it is life on the reserve is largely pretty bleak. Limited employment and education options and monthly cheques which is why I believe that so many natives get involved with drugs and alcohol. The abuse of these substances is what leads natives to get arrested and end up jail or prison. It is certainly preventable but the natives must take the first step and agree that their lives in the reserve system just isn't working out very well.

[eyeball]

The population and economic well being of the reserve I live next to has surged since our treaty was signed. The treaty is one of the biggest economic drivers in my region in the wake of our collapsed natural resource industries. But natives are gearing up to go fishing and logging again and pulling many of us along with them so...

And man do these folks know how to get red-tape out of the way. It's nonexistent to them to the point that non-natives are probably at a serious disadvantage. Now that I know what real self-governance looks like...I want mine too...like yesterday.

[Accountability Now]

In looks to me that he government is doing a disservice to the people who live on reserves. The people on reserves are lacking the services needed no matter how much money the government gives them.

What services are 'owed' to the First Nations from the Federal Government beyond health care and education? We outlined this above with the water and wastewater treatment facilities examples. The problem that exists is the treaties only list a few items that are the actual responsibility for the Feds but it is always thrown into their lap when various services are lacking. Keep in mind that most services that the rest of Canada sees are extracted from municipal or local taxes not Federal. In the limited examples we've seen, the Federal funding per capita is usually higher for reserves as providing these services to remote locations is not as efficient and cost effective.

I have always said they are entitled to their treaties but I do think the treaties are screwing them over especially in places where econonmic sustainability isn't an option. As eyeball points out, there are a number of places were it is an option and these places flourish but those are far and few compared to the numbers that are not. But no matter how bleak things are they still want their treaties. I guess its easier to see the irony in this from the outside looking in.

[overthere]

The population and economic well being of the reserve I live next to has surged since our treaty was signed. The treaty is one of the biggest economic drivers in my region in the wake of our collapsed natural resource industries. But natives are gearing up to go fishing and logging again and pulling many of us along with them so...

And man do these folks know how to get red-tape out of the way. It's nonexistent to them to the point that non-natives are probably at a serious disadvantage. Now that I know what real self-governance looks like...I want mine too...like yesterday.

They already lived on a reserve, but just recently signed a treaty?

What do you mean?

[jacee]

I don't know about this. There are a lot of urban legends that make their way around the internet talking about trillions in the reserve. When I last looked at the government audit, it showed about 1.5 billion.

What should be in FN trust accounts and what was actually put in there may be two different things. No doubt the accounting of trust funds will be subject to litigation.

.