US Torture Report - A Shining Beacon of....I'm sorry I just get so

[eyeball]

I am afraid that the USA has lost the moral high ground with this critical EIT report.

As BC2004 once reminded us, you can't lose what you never had.

[Big Guy]

To bcscrapper - I do not disagree that beheading suspected insurgents is not something civilized people would do. There are many countries who have the potential to capture Westerners suspected of espionage. From China to North Korea to Russia to most Arab states and a number of stans in the East. Does this report now validate them torturing suspected captives?

While torture has been proven to be ineffective as an interrogation technique, a beheading is guaranteed to stop cooperation from a prisoner.

[PrimeNumber]

Only 3 people were water boarded. None of which were innocent. As I've said, water boarding is probably very unpleasant. But that doesn't make it torture. As for the reports findings, it was predetermined what the findings would be. That's why the directors and the interrogators of the programs weren't interviewed and weren't allowed to give input.

Torture

noun \ˈtȯr-chər\

1. something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience.

2: the act of causing severe physical pain or mental anguish as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something.

By the very definition water boarding is torture. Heck sitting for an hour during a christian mass can be considered torture. They wouldn't do it if they didn't think it was torture.

[Black Dog]

Only 3 people were water boarded. None of which were innocent.

So what?

As I've said, water boarding is probably very unpleasant. But that doesn't make it torture.

So what does make something torture? What magical line does one have to cross?

As for the reports findings, it was predetermined what the findings would be. That's why the directors and the interrogators of the programs weren't interviewed and weren't allowed to give input.

Well, this is just partisan spin (I wonder where you cut and pasted it from?) But the facts are the facts. The CIA tortured people. There was little oversight or accountability for the program. The torture wasn't effective and the CIA lied to the public about what they were up to. But do keep up the affronted routine: it's hilarious to watch the most blindly partisan person on this board whine about partisanship.

[Shady]

So what?

So what does make something torture? What magical line does one have to cross?

Well, this is just partisan spin (I wonder where you cut and pasted it from?) But the facts are the facts. The CIA tortured people. There was little oversight or accountability for the program. The torture wasn't effective and the CIA lied to the public about what they were up to. But do keep up the affronted routine: it's hilarious to watch the most blindly partisan person on this board whine about partisanship.

Not partisan spin at all but actual facts. Facts can be stubborn things sometimes.

[Shady]

Torturenoun \ˈtȯr-chər\

1. something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience.

2: the act of causing severe physical pain or mental anguish as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something.

By the very definition water boarding is torture. Heck sitting for an hour during a christian mass can be considered torture. They wouldn't do it if they didn't think it was torture.

Yes, torture is subjective.

[PrimeNumber]

Yes, torture is subjective.

Subjective to a point Shady and to whomever is receiving the torture. I've never heard of anyone whose been water boarded say it's not torture. Just those who have no sniff of what it actually feels like, who would then, logically, have no say on the matter.

[Argus]

You'd change your tune in about 2 seconds of actually being waterboarded, just like Christopher Hitchens did when he volunteered to give it a go.

You and others miss the point.

Torture causes enormous pain and, for the most part, damage to the body.

Waterboarding and sleep deprivation cause emotional distress and exhaustion.

You can condemn them as inhumane, but no, they aren't the same as torture.

Which would you rather experience, waterboarding and sleep deprivation, or having your fingernails ripped out slowly one by one?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Argus

[Black Dog]

Not partisan spin at all but actual facts. Facts can be stubborn things sometimes.

You don't understand what "spin" means, do you? It means presenting the facts in a certain light. Like, for example, complaining about the report being partisan without mentioning that the Republicans dropped out of participating over fears that CIA staff might actually be held accountable for breaking the law.

[PrimeNumber]

You and others miss the point.

Torture causes enormous pain and, for the most part, damage to the body.

Waterboarding and sleep deprivation cause emotional distress and exhaustion.

You can condemn them as inhumane, but no, they aren't the same as torture.

Which would you rather experience, waterboarding and sleep deprivation, or having your fingernails ripped out slowly one by one?

Pretty sure I just cleared that one up, see above. Torture can and does cause mental anguish as well. If you haven't gone through it, you can not relate to the fact of it being or not being torture. It's subjective but those whom have not experienced it really have no say. To say water boarding does not cause damage to the body means you have no idea what "drowning" someone can do to their brain. Neurological problems can happen within minutes. Damage to lungs and brain damage from oxygen deprivation can and have occurred during water boarding.

[Black Dog]

You and others miss the point.

Torture causes enormous pain and, for the most part, damage to the body.

Waterboarding and sleep deprivation cause emotional distress and exhaustion.

You can condemn them as inhumane, but no, they aren't the same as torture.

Which would you rather experience, waterboarding and sleep deprivation, or having your fingernails ripped out slowly one by one?

IOW: "these things are not torture if we use a definition of torture I just invented."

You know one can actually die from being waterboarded, right?

[PrimeNumber]

Also the "what would you rather..." does not apply to it being or not being torture, that is an illogical argument.

[cybercoma]

If that were the case wouldn't we be cutting their heads off?

The point is you can't condemn someone else for doing the same things that you do. We don't cut people's heads off because we condemn those actions. We don't torture people because we should hold the moral high ground to condemn those activities. But now we do torture people, so we have no footing to spout hypocrisy about human rights.

[Guest]

Well, if they decide to water board enemy combatants for information gathering purposes instead of cutting the heads off anyone they disagree with I promise I won't make a fuss.

[cybercoma]

Yes, torture is subjective.

Someone asks you what is torture--what line has to be crossed? You ignored that question only to post this gem. Torture is subjective. If anything can be defined as torture, then nothing can be defined as torture. If you're going to say it's all subjective, you're essentially saying there's no such thing. If it can be anything, then it can also be nothing.

This is the argument of someone whose position is so untenable that they can't even define torture. You are so biased to Republican policies that you can't even take a position on torture.

That's just sad. I feel bad for you.

[eyeball]

Yes, torture is subjective.

Well you know what they say about abuse, if it feels like it's happening, it is.

[Big Guy]

Maybe we should just put them into a choke hold.

[Shady]

Pretend drowning isn't the same as real drowning. And there's no such thing as pretend finger nail pulling off, or pretend thumbscrewings, or pretende racks, or pretend removing of tongues, or pretend beatings, or pretend whippings, etc, etc, etc.

I'm okay with extremely rare water boarding, as is the majority of the public. I guess we can agree to disagree. You can just thank me, and others like me for your safety and security.

[eyeball]

You can just thank me, and others like me for your safety and security.

Except that it's your ilk responsible for causing so many people to hate us in the first place.

You're all just one big living breathing ongoing galvanizing event.

[Black Dog]

Pretend drowning isn't the same as real drowning. And there's no such thing as pretend finger nail pulling off, or pretend thumbscrewings, or pretende racks, or pretend removing of tongues, or pretend beatings, or pretend whippings, etc, etc, etc.

If you were waterboarded without interruption, what do you think would happen?

I'm okay with extremely rare water boarding, as is the majority of the public. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Care to provide a cite for that claim?

You can just thank me, and others like me for your safety and security.

Oh yeah, you're a tough guy on the front lines of the war on terror, keeping us safe from behind your keyboard in your mom's London, Ontario basement. LOFL

Edited December 15, 2014 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

A few references for the "if you don't bleed, it's not torture" crowd.

1. Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture:

   The term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

2. The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture: In order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.
3. Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.
4. Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
5. Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
6. Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture For the purposes of this Convention, torture shall be understood to be any act intentionally performed whereby physical or mental pain or suffering is inflicted on a person for purposes of criminal investigation, as a means of intimidation, as personal punishment, as a preventive measure, as a penalty, or for any other purpose. Torture shall also be understood to be the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish. The concept of torture shall not include physical or mental pain or suffering that is inherent in or solely the consequence of lawful measures, provided that they do not include the performance of the acts or use of the methods referred to in this article.
7. 18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2)

   “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control

   (2)“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

   (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

   ( the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

   © the threat of imminent death; or

   (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;

[cybercoma]

Pretend drowning isn't the same as real drowning.

Just out of curiosity, have you read anything from experts about waterboarding? If you have, do you just dismiss what they say because it doesn't jibe with your opinion?

[cybercoma]

I'm okay with [torture]. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Yeah. I don't think you get it. There's no agreeing to disagree on this one. People like "you and your ilk" who condone and encourage torture are the bane of humanity.

[bush_cheney2004]

As expected, a majority of polled American agree that it's torture, but sometimes justified:

According to a CBS News poll conducted Dec. 11-14 of 1,003 adults, 69 percent say they believe waterboarding is torture, though 49 percent think the practice, along with other enhanced interrogation techniques, is sometimes justified. Thirty-six percent think that the practices are not justified in any circumstance.

The survey also found that 57 percent of Americans think some interrogation tactics are effective in eliciting reliable information that helps prevent future terrorist attacks in some cases, even though the Senate report concluded that they are not an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees.

[Shady]

Yeah. I don't think you get it. There's no agreeing to disagree on this one. People like "you and your ilk" who condone and encourage torture are the bane of humanity.

I don't encourage it. But I do understand the necessity of techniques like water boarding and or sleep deprivation in rare circumstances. It should be kind of like abortion. Safe, legal and rare!