US Torture Report - A Shining Beacon of....I'm sorry I just get so

[bush_cheney2004]

As in Canada, citizenship and voting rights had been denied to various groups in a purposeful and systematic fashion in the U.S. These are only considered to be democratic process mistakes in hindsight.

[eyeball]

When I post that forgiveness is easier to get than permission, it is not just a glib comeback.

Same as when I post that citizens of a democracy are accountable for the actions of their governments.

[Black Dog]

As in Canada, citizenship and voting rights had been denied to various groups in a purposeful and systematic fashion in the U.S. These are only considered to be democratic process mistakes in hindsight.

"Democratic process mistakes" is to crime against humanity as "enhanced interrogation technique" is to torture.

[On Guard for Thee]

That would be the very same body that once overwhelmingly ruled that blacks could not be American citizens.

Ah yes, the Dred Scott case.

Referring to the language in the Declaration of Independence that includes the phrase, "all men are created equal," Taney reasoned that "it is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration. . . ."

I see Grand Jury's are carrying on the tradition.

[bush_cheney2004]

Democratic processes also firebombed and nuked entire cities. "Torture" pales in comparison.

[Black Dog]

Democratic processes also firebombed and nuked entire cities. "Torture" pales in comparison.

Torture is also a longstanding instrument of American policy abroad and at home. It belongs up there with bald eagles and apple pie, God, mother and the lynching noose.

[On Guard for Thee]

Similar processes are meant to prosecute people who break the laws. Can't wait to see Bush?Cheney etal on trial.

[bush_cheney2004]

Torture is a universal human condition...just ask the defunct Canadian Airborne Regiment. Ultimately, nobody was held accountable.

[On Guard for Thee]

Torture is a universal human condition...just ask the defunct Canadian Airborne Regiment. Ultimately, nobody was held accountable.

Oops, another failed attempt at a poke at Canada. Actually 9 people were taken to court, 6 were acquitted, 2 did time, 1 unfit to stand trial because of brain damage from a suicide attempt.

Better luck next time though.

Edited December 12, 2014 by On Guard for Thee

[Black Dog]

Torture is a universal human condition...just ask the defunct Canadian Airborne Regiment. Ultimately, nobody was held accountable.

But, but, but...Canada!

And you're mistaken: nine members of the regiment were charged and four convicted of various offences.

[bush_cheney2004]

My bad...torture only matters when it's the U.S. doing it.

[On Guard for Thee]

But, but, but...Canada!

And you're mistaken: nine members of the regiment were charged and four convicted of various offences.

Our numbers differed slightly but we shot that one down pretty quick. One difference might be that Clayton Matchee had his charges dropped as he was mentally unfit to stand trial after the brain damage he suffered trying to hang himself in prison.

[Argus]

Similar processes are meant to prosecute people who break the laws. Can't wait to see Bush?Cheney etal on trial.

I was watching MSNB the other day, and Joe Scarborough reacting to the report. He was in congress, and he still knows a lot of people there. He said all the faux outrage by Democrats was pathetic, that they were there and briefed repeatedly and knew damn well what was going on and didn't care. In the environment post 911 they were willing to do just about anything to ensure something like that didn't happen again. And if some wild-eyed Arabs got treated a little roughly they didn't give a damn.

[Shady]

I was watching MSNB the other day, and Joe Scarborough reacting to the report. He was in congress, and he still knows a lot of people there. He said all the faux outrage by Democrats was pathetic, that they were there and briefed repeatedly and knew damn well what was going on and didn't care. In the environment post 911 they were willing to do just about anything to ensure something like that didn't happen again. And if some wild-eyed Arabs got treated a little roughly they didn't give a damn.

You're quite right. Many of the same people "shocked and outraged" today, were briefed on what was going on, and actually asked if that was all the CIA was doing.

[Shady]

Personally, I don't consider water boarding and sleep depravation to be torture. That being said, there were a few instances of things going too far, and corrections should have been made to the programs. Regardless, the report is deeply flawed. They sought to prove a conclusion before the report was even begun. Which is why the CIA managers of the programs and the interrogators themselves were never asked to participate in the report. The verdict was in before the process even started. But it allows the usual people to trash America, and feign outrage.

[bush_cheney2004]

Agreed...bleeding hearts shouldn't hold there breath waiting for the "Hands Up...Don't Torture" protests and riots on behalf of terrorists.

[On Guard for Thee]

Personally, I don't consider water boarding and sleep depravation to be torture. That being said, there were a few instances of things going too far, and corrections should have been made to the programs. Regardless, the report is deeply flawed. They sought to prove a conclusion before the report was even begun. Which is why the CIA managers of the programs and the interrogators themselves were never asked to participate in the report. The verdict was in before the process even started. But it allows the usual people to trash America, and feign outrage.

Surely you must be kidding! If not let's take you out and waterboard you a few times and see if your attitude doesn't shift just a tad.

[Argus]

Surely you must be kidding! If not let's take you out and waterboard you a few times and see if your attitude doesn't shift just a tad.

It beats having a hot iron shoved up your ass...

[Peter F]

Well, I can think of something worse than that! Ninja Grizzley bears! With eyes that shoot lasers!

therefore a hot iron being shoved up the ass is not torture, really.

[Shady]

Surely you must be kidding! If not let's take you out and waterboard you a few times and see if your attitude doesn't shift just a tad.

I'm not kidding. I can imagine it's very unpleasant. But there are lots of things that I can imagine are unpleasant and not something that I'd like to do. In my opinion, simulated drowning (not actual drowning) is not torture. See hot iron.

[cybercoma]

It beats having a hot iron shoved up your ass...

Or dying from hypothermia?

[Black Dog]

Personally, I don't consider water boarding and sleep depravation to be torture.

You'd change your tune in about 2 seconds of actually being waterboarded, just like Christopher Hitchens did when he volunteered to give it a go.

You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it “simulates” the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning—or, rather, being drowned, albeit slowly and under controlled conditions and at the mercy (or otherwise) of those who are applying the pressure. The “board” is the instrument, not the method. You are not being boarded. You are being watered. This was very rapidly brought home to me when, on top of the hood, which still admitted a few flashes of random and worrying strobe light to my vision, three layers of enveloping towel were added. In this pregnant darkness, head downward, I waited for a while until I abruptly felt a slow cascade of water going up my nose. Determined to resist if only for the honor of my navy ancestors who had so often been in peril on the sea, I held my breath for a while and then had to exhale and—as you might expect—inhale in turn. The inhalation brought the damp cloths tight against my nostrils, as if a huge, wet paw had been suddenly and annihilatingly clamped over my face. Unable to determine whether I was breathing in or out, and flooded more with sheer panic than with mere water, I triggered the pre-arranged signal and felt the unbelievable relief of being pulled upright and having the soaking and stifling layers pulled off me. I find I don’t want to tell you how little time I lasted.

That being said, there were a few instances of things going too far, and corrections should have been made to the programs.

Yes, the torture program definitely had a few kinks that needed to be ironed out.

Regardless, the report is deeply flawed. They sought to prove a conclusion before the report was even begun. Which is why the CIA managers of the programs and the interrogators themselves were never asked to participate in the report. The verdict was in before the process even started. But it allows the usual people to trash America, and feign outrage.

Says a lot that about you that you're more upset by the bureaucratic process than the actual torture of numerous innocent people. Do you have anything to say about the actual contents of the report and its findings, the essential facts of which are not being disputed?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Black Dog

[Big Guy]

Watching Cheney trying to defend his Enhanced Interrogation Techniques to a television interviewer. He still claims that EIT and the examples given in the report are not "torture". He was asked if he then expected that any American captured by another nation be subjected to EIT. He kept tap dancing and when asked if it would be acceptable that this EIT technique be used on American captives he quickly changed the subject.

I believe that to be the problem. How we treat suspected terrorists is the way we would expect that Americans and Canadians be treated who were captured and suspected to be a danger to another nation.

I am afraid that the USA has lost the moral high ground with this critical EIT report.

[Guest]

If that were the case wouldn't we be cutting their heads off?

[Shady]

You'd change your tune in about 2 seconds of actually being waterboarded, just like Christopher Hitchens did when he volunteered to give it a go.

Yes, the torture program definitely had a few kinks that needed to be ironed out.

Says a lot that about you that you're more upset by the bureaucratic process than the actual torture of numerous innocent people. Do you have anything to say about the actual contents of the report and its findings, the essential facts of which are not being disputed?

Only 3 people were water boarded. None of which were innocent. As I've said, water boarding is probably very unpleasant. But that doesn't make it torture. As for the reports findings, it was predetermined what the findings would be. That's why the directors and the interrogators of the programs weren't interviewed and weren't allowed to give input.