Topaz Posted November 6, 2014 Report Posted November 6, 2014 One of the reporter said he was told that one of the offences happened on the bus that went to the funeral in Montreal. One thing is clear, these women are either going to have to come out and tell their story or forget about because the public is thinking the worse of these two men, which may be completely wrong and their times could be over with. What if it was more a verbal action rather than physical?? Quote
guyser Posted November 6, 2014 Report Posted November 6, 2014 Actually, the two men could come out and state what they did. Quote
The_Squid Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 One of the reporter said he was told that one of the offences happened on the bus that went to the funeral in Montreal. One thing is clear, these women are either going to have to come out and tell their story or forget about because the public is thinking the worse of these two men, which may be completely wrong and their times could be over with. What if it was more a verbal action rather than physical?? No, they don't have to come out publicly. This can be handled internally and these two MPs, if JT finds they acted inappropriately, can be kicked out of the Liberal caucus and/or party without the women ever having to "tell their story" to you or anyone else. Why should they have to be in the media? This is a workplace harassment issue. Does everyone who gets harassed at work have to publish their names in the paper? Quote
Argus Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) In the private sector the accused individuals would be removed from the situation while an investigation took place. This is the proper course. Remove them from caucus, investigate the situation and if they're cleared then invite them back. I can't speak to the private sector but in the public sector there is supposed to be an investigation, an informal one where all concerned are questioned and the manager involved determines if the actions as described fall under the definition of harassment. All large organizations have such a definition, though apparently parliament does not. If the complaint is deemed to have some merit it goes up to a more specialized investigator. The 'removed from the situation' part is done to separate the parties, but I fail to see how that has any purpose in this case. The MPs remain MPs and remain in parliament. The complainants don't work with them nor are they in their party. There is no purpose in suspending them now other than political, to appear to be very righteous at the mention of harassment. I might also add that investigations and accusations are kept confidential in the public sector. No one other than the parties involved are to be aware of it and they are all enjoined to keep their yaps shut. This is to protect the reputation of all involved, especially prior to any actual finding of guilt. Apparently Trudeau chose to ignore this longstanding precedent, again, for clearly political purposes. Edited November 7, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 No, that's not true. They believe that government is a cancer to be killed in many ways. That's a wild exaggeration... well, in Canada it is. The Tea Party are nuts enough that I'm sure some of them believe it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 No, they don't have to come out publicly. This can be handled internally and these two MPs, if JT finds they acted inappropriately, can be kicked out of the Liberal caucus and/or party without the women ever having to "tell their story" to you or anyone else. Why should they have to be in the media? This is a workplace harassment issue. Does everyone who gets harassed at work have to publish their names in the paper? Now that JT has named the men I'm sure they will let it slip who the women are complaining against them. Then those women will be questioned by the media and will either have to lie or explain themselves. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) I can't speak to the private sector but in the public sector there is supposed to be an investigation, an informal one where all concerned are questioned and the manager involved determines if the actions as described fall under the definition of harassment. All large organizations have such a definition, though apparently parliament does not. If the complaint is deemed to have some merit it goes up to a more specialized investigator. The 'removed from the situation' part is done to separate the parties, but I fail to see how that has any purpose in this case. The MPs remain MPs and remain in parliament. The complainants don't work with them nor are they in their party. There is no purpose in suspending them now other than political, to appear to be very righteous at the mention of harassment. I might also add that investigations and accusations are kept confidential in the public sector. No one other than the parties involved are to be aware of it and they are all enjoined to keep their yaps shut. This is to protect the reputation of all involved, especially prior to any actual finding of guilt. Apparently Trudeau chose to ignore this longstanding precedent, again, for clearly political purposes. These are elected officials that just got suspended. The women involved, the NDP and Trudeau owe it....yes, owe it to the public to come clean about every detail. Edited November 7, 2014 by Hal 9000 Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Argus Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 These are elected officials that just got suspended. The women involved, the NDP and Trudeau owe it....yes, owe it to the public to come clean about every detail. Well now that Trudeau has opened his mouth I don't see how the details or the identities of the women involved can be kept secret much longer. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 I might also add that investigations and accusations are kept confidential in the public sector. No one other than the parties involved are to be aware of it and they are all enjoined to keep their yaps shut. This is to protect the reputation of all involved, especially prior to any actual finding of guilt. Apparently Trudeau chose to ignore this longstanding precedent, again, for clearly political purposes. This. I find his outing of their situation to be as bad as the harassment itself, if not worse. They clearly did not want this to be made public. Quote
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 This. I find his outing of their situation to be as bad as the harassment itself, if not worse. They clearly did not want this to be made public. If a person...any person is gonna accuse another person of abuse, they need to own up to their accusations. This is a very serious situation and we have two families who are going to damaged by these accusations, the least an accuser should do is stand up and be accountable. And this situation is even moreso, what if you voted for any of these people? You should know why you're elected official has been fired. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
cybercoma Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 If a person...any person is gonna accuse another person of abuse, they need to own up to their accusations. Oh give it a rest. We've already seen your opinion of victims of harassment and sexual violence in the Ghomeshi thread. They made their accusations in person to the leader of the MP's political party. They rightfully expected confidentiality in the matter, as they don't need their dirty laundry aired in public. They have every right to that privacy. Quote
Big Guy Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) An MP of one party goes directly to the leader of another party and tells him that one male member (or two) of his caucus has harassed her (and another MP). Apparently they had already told THEIR leader, Mulcair, about the incident and did not get satisfaction - if Mulcair did act on it then why go directly to JT, the leader of the other party? Looks like JT is sitting on a bus when the MP lady comes to him and he hears her accusation. Is he supposed to un-hear her complaint? Is he supposed to go to Mulcair and ask him why he has not said anything or done anything? These NDP ladies are not some meek secretaries or office workers who are naïve and vulnerable. They are elected MP's who have had to elbow and fight their way to winning an election. They are supposed to have the brains and commitment to send soldiers into war if necessary. After making an accusation then expecting anonymity? These MP's could be making decisions on changing our criminal code. Apparently Mulcair has known about these accusations for a while - it is HIS MP's, HIS caucus, His choice to not pursue their accusations and complaints. I would be asking Mulcair what he did or did not do and why. Edited November 7, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 Oh give it a rest. We've already seen your opinion of victims of harassment and sexual violence in the Ghomeshi thread. They made their accusations in person to the leader of the MP's political party. They rightfully expected confidentiality in the matter, as they don't need their dirty laundry aired in public. They have every right to that privacy. My opinions are simple, you accuse someone of an offence - fair enough! But, I believe anybody who is claiming they're a victim of abuse should come forward and call their accuser to task. And, if they are elected officials, they should clearly state their story and why they are levelling their accusations. The public needs to hear directly why the person they elected is getting removed from their job. I know you don't give a good god damn about men, but these guys have families and careers and deserve to have the truth come out. If that truth is sexual harassment, then we'll all dust our hands at them and move along. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
On Guard for Thee Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 My opinions are simple, you accuse someone of an offence - fair enough! But, I believe anybody who is claiming they're a victim of abuse should come forward and call their accuser to task. And, if they are elected officials, they should clearly state their story and why they are levelling their accusations. The public needs to hear directly why the person they elected is getting removed from their job. I know you don't give a good god damn about men, but these guys have families and careers and deserve to have the truth come out. If that truth is sexual harassment, then we'll all dust our hands at them and move along. Yes please do give it a rest. Or give it a read. You clearly don't understand the nuances of what's happening. First of all they are not losing their jobs, they are suspended from caucus. That is JT's right since he appointed them in the first place. Anyone in Justin's position with a brain in their head would do the same thing. Those suspended MP's of course have the presumption of innocence, just as you or I do. The story is far from over. Quote
Mighty AC Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Well now that Trudeau has opened his mouth I don't see how the details or the identities of the women involved can be kept secret much longer. The NDP mentioned the names of the women involved, not Trudeau. Edited November 7, 2014 by Mighty AC Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 Yes please do give it a rest. Or give it a read. You clearly don't understand the nuances of what's happening. First of all they are not losing their jobs, they are suspended from caucus. That is JT's right since he appointed them in the first place. Anyone in Justin's position with a brain in their head would do the same thing. Those suspended MP's of course have the presumption of innocence, just as you or I do. The story is far from over. I'm not arguing whether they should be suspended or not, am I? As for presumption of innocence, ask cybercoma if she presumes them innocent. JT wants to be a champion of women's rights, that's what he wants. Especially after the Ghomeshi incident. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
On Guard for Thee Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 I'm not arguing whether they should be suspended or not, am I? As for presumption of innocence, ask cybercoma if she presumes them innocent. JT wants to be a champion of women's rights, that's what he wants. Especially after the Ghomeshi incident. And is there something wrong with championing women's rights? Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) JT wants to be a champion of women's rights, that's what he wants. Especially after the Ghomeshi incident. Why are you so focused on womens rights? This seems to be a common thread that is seen throughout your posts. Do you have something against women who stand up for their rights? I'm asking because whenever an issue is raised with regards to women 'fighting' for justice or to be treated equally, you seem to fight it every step of the way. Edited November 7, 2014 by WestCoastRunner Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 But, I believe anybody who is claiming they're a victim of abuse should come forward and call their accuser to task. Your beliefs don't matter. The identity of victims are protected. Even if the perpetrator is an elected official. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 And is there something wrong with championing women's rights? No, but it's you who said "anything for a vote". I agree. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 Why are you so focused on womens rights? This seems to be a common thread that is seen throughout your posts. Do you have something against women who stand up for their rights? I'm asking because whenever an issue is raised with regards to women 'fighting' for justice or to be treated equally, you seem to fight it every step of the way. Have you not heard me say that women should come forward more often? I never fucking fight against rights, or equality. You fucking feminists do not care about the trail you leave though, that pisses me off. Call out a guy for harassment - great, it should be dome, but don't hide and lack accountability. If you're angered enough to allow a persons job or freedom to be taken away - fine, stand up and be accountable! Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
WestCoastRunner Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Have you not heard me say that women should come forward more often? I never fucking fight against rights, or equality. You fucking feminists do not care about the trail you leave though, that pisses me off. Call out a guy for harassment - great, it should be dome, but don't hide and lack accountability. If you're angered enough to allow a persons job or freedom to be taken away - fine, stand up and be accountable! Need I say more. Can you give me your definition of a 'feminist'? Edited November 7, 2014 by WestCoastRunner Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Hal 9000 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 Your beliefs don't matter. The identity of victims are protected. Even if the perpetrator is an elected official. Women...always the victims and men always the perpetrator....just the way you like it! And don't even try to disagree! Ever heard of a woman falsely accusing a guy? I bet you haven't! Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Moonlight Graham Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 No, that's not true. They believe that government is a cancer to be killed in many ways. Unless government is used for surveillance/spying, crime and punishment, using the military, and spending a lot of taxes/debt in general. They believe small government in some ways, true, but they're very far from being libertarian-type conservatives. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
WestCoastRunner Posted November 7, 2014 Report Posted November 7, 2014 Women...always the victims and men always the perpetrator....just the way you like it! And don't even try to disagree! Ever heard of a woman falsely accusing a guy? I bet you haven't! Wow, are you for real? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.