War Against ISIL

[Bonam]

Thats a pretty lazy question. Why would you compare how 20 million Sunnis feel about being FORCED to live under a Dictator like Assad, to a handful of Muslims that VOLUNTARILY immigrate to Canada?

The ones that came here as first generation immigrants came here voluntarily... but the ones that are born here are just as much "forced" to be here as are the people that are in Syria. Neither country has closed borders. Not a meaningful distinction. There are perhaps other meaningful distinctions to be made, but this is not one of them.

[Big Guy]

ISIL Update - Canadian troops are being fired on and are firing back. Government says they have to fire back when fired upon. Opposition asks why Canadian troops are the only ones of the coalition who are in a place to be fired on. Fingers will start pointing at each other when the body bags come down the 401.

The good guys Shia fighters central to the Iraqi government's fight against ISIL, accompanied by Interior Ministry SWAT teams and Iraqi soldiers rounded up about 80 civilians from a village who they suspected to be ISIL supporters in the Sunni village of Barwana. They lined them up and massacred them all.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/01/iraq-pm-orders-urgent-probe-military-massacre-150129132719377.html

These are our brothers in arms. We are dropping bombs to make their jobs easier.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Big Guy

[PrimeNumber]

ISIL Update - Canadian troops are being fired on and are firing back. Government says they have to fire back when fired upon. Opposition asks why Canadian troops are the only ones of the coalition who are in a place to be fired on. Fingers will start pointing at each other when the body bags come down the 401.

The good guys Shia fighters central to the Iraqi government's fight against ISIL, accompanied by Interior Ministry SWAT teams and Iraqi soldiers rounded up about 80 civilians from a village who they suspected to be ISIL supporters in the Sunni village of Barwana. They lined them up and massacred them all.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/01/iraq-pm-orders-urgent-probe-military-massacre-150129132719377.html

These are our brothers in arms. We are dropping bombs to make their jobs easier.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Harper and the CPC have a selective conscience. Much like their selective conscience with Saudi Arabia. Not only that their pretty dense when it comes to learning lessons. Can't teach old dogs anything it turns out.

Edited January 29, 2015 by PrimeNumber

[Big Guy]

Looks like trouble in Egypt. ISIS linked fighters have invaded and taken El-Arish, the nearby town of Sheik Zuwayid and the town of Rafah bordering the Gaza strip.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/troops-killed-attacks-egypt-north-sinai-150129230953482.html

Israel, with Egypt's help on the West side, had been able to bottle up Hamas in the Gaza strip. If the pro-ISIS forces are able to keep or expand the territory they have just attacked, they could open the flood gates to all those really pi$$ed Palestinians in Gaza. That might make that fiasco in the Middle East even more interesting.

[eyeball]

Looks like trouble in Egypt.

Go figure.

I'd make more popcorn but I'm out of butter.

Oh look, here comes an election...snore.

[Topaz]

The minister said yesterday in committee, that he thinks Canadians are 100% in support of the mission, but are we? Are we okay with spending not millions but billions, before this is over and did the PM mislead Parliament when he said no Canadians troops would accompany the Iraqis?

[Big Guy]

The latest bait that ISIS has thrown at the West is the video of ISIS burning that Jordanian pilot alive. Apparently that was done on Jan 2 and ISIS has been playing the West and getting as much play as possible. These guys are not stupid. Now the Jordanians are being torn between getting the heck out of that war and attacking with outrage by walking right into that trap.

BTW, That video of burning that Jordanian pilot alive was pretty sickening.

But is it more sickening than dropping bombs that obliterate, vaporize, and BBQ people on the ground?

Reminds me of the German pilots that were shot and parachuted out over Europe and later found with a few pitch folks sticking out of their bodies.

Good news, the Kurds (the good Kurds) have declared that they now control Kobani in Northern Syria.

Bad news - The town is now a pile of rubble.

[eyeball]

The latest bait that ISIS has thrown at the West is the video of ISIS burning that Jordanian pilot alive. Apparently that was done on Jan 2 and ISIS has been playing the West and getting as much play as possible. These guys are not stupid. Now the Jordanians are being torn between getting the heck out of that war and attacking with outrage by walking right into that trap.

It seems the bait was aimed a lot closer to Jordan given the way the video also pieced images together of Barak Obama shaking hands with Jordan's king, coalition bombers taking off from Jordan, burned crushed dead kids - the manner by which Moaz al-Kasasbeh was killed. A string of connecting dots that's fairly typical in the region. No these guys aren't stupid but do they really need to be rocket scientists to get their point across?

OTOH it's a little phenomenal how much of it still flies right over the heads of their audience.

Edited February 4, 2015 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

These guys are not stupid.

Maybe, but "not stupid" does not equal smart. After reading the New Yorker piece on the other thread ( http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24252-isis-compared-to-khmer-rouge/#entry1028117 ) I believe that they're blinded by their mission. They don't have an end-game that will work.

[GostHacked]

Maybe, but "not stupid" does not equal smart. After reading the New Yorker piece on the other thread ( http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24252-isis-compared-to-khmer-rouge/#entry1028117 ) I believe that they're blinded by their mission. They don't have an end-game that will work.

Kind of like those who started the war on terror.

[Michael Hardner]

Kind of like those who started the war on terror.

You made me think just there. Their end vision had a plan B, I think, those who "started" the war that you refer to. We're doing plan B now.

[bush_cheney2004]

Congratulations Canada...you are now an official "Crusader" nation according to ISIS propaganda video.

If you're in for a dime...you're in for a dollar.

[Big Guy]

Michael - I believe that the end game was to create chaos in the region, create a Sunni Caliphate and get the West out of their region. There is a reason that this small group of fanatics is thumbing its nose at the all powerful West - It is not a small group but has the support of the locals. They are not interlopers but liberators for the majority of people in that area - Sunnis.

Just superimpose a religious map of the area on the artificial map created by the West and the situation becomes obvious.

http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-crisis-iraq

I believe their intention is to create their own Sunni nation and get the West out of their lands.

They are winning. Already our fellow bombers (Jordan) have fallen into the trap. So what does Jordan do in response - they kill two people. Hello - Isis killed one Jordanian prisoner so Jordan kills a couple of Al Qaeda prisoners. These (Jordan) are our fellow fighters who share bombing runs with us. I guess it is not OK to kill "good" prisoners but OK to kill "bad" prisoners. Remember, we are in bed with these guys.

I see we have been arresting a few more "terrorists" in Canada. I guess if ISIS kills some Canadians we will have a few people we can kill in return.

We are slowly getting sucked into this quagmire and Bin Laden is laughing in his watery grave.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Big Guy

[dre]

Michael - I believe that the end game was to create chaos in the region, create a Sunni Caliphate and get the West out of their region. There is a reason that this small group of fanatics is thumbing its nose at the all powerful West - It is not a small group but has the support of the locals. They are not interlopers but liberators for the majority of people in that area - Sunnis.

And this is the huge miscalculation and manifestation of ignorance we see from the architects and supporters of this little adventure. They have absolutely no plan, no strategy, and no knowledge of whats going on over there. They just see another mole to wack.

But its that wack-a-mole tactic that brought us ISIL in the first place. And even IF we defeat ISIL, and manage to dislodge them from the areas they control, what people dont realize is that will just make the problem worse. ISIL is the manifestation of sunni nationalism, and the rejection of rule by Iranian backed Shia. Foreign powers trying to militarily force Sunnis to submit to proxy Iranian rule is not going to help, and we will simply be creating the next "mole" that has to get wacked, at great expense to us and them as well.

Michael - I believe that the end game was to create chaos in the region, create a Sunni Caliphate and get the West out of their region.

The west to ISIL is a secondary enemy. The primary goal is to free Sunnis from Shia rule. Their core goal is the oath they swore when ISIL was created back in 2006.

On 12 October 2006, the Mujahideen Shura Council joined four more insurgent factions and the representatives of a number of Iraqi Arab tribes, and together they swore the traditional Arab oath of allegiance known as Ḥilf al-Muṭayyabīn ("Oath of the Scented Ones").^[b][76][77]During the ceremony, the participants swore to free Iraq's Sunnis from what they described as Shia and foreign oppression, and to further the name of Allah and restore Islam to glory.^[c][76]

On 13 October 2006, the Mujahideen Shura Council declared the establishment of the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), comprising Iraq's six mostly Sunni Arab governorates, with Abu Omar al-Baghdadi being announced as its Emir.^[51][71] Al-Masri was given the title of Minister of War within the ISI's ten-member cabinet.^[78] The declaration of statehood was met with hostile criticism, not only from ISI's jihadist rivals in Iraq, but from leading jihadist ideologues outside the country.^[79]

But yeah... We are going to force 20+ million sunnis to submit to rule by Iranian shia proxy... From the cockpit of a fighter jet at 10000 feet. What a great idea The people that planned or support this could not think their way out of a wet paper bag.

Edited February 5, 2015 by dre

[Big Guy]

Good News - (Maybe) Jordan has increased their bombing runs against ISIS.

Bad News - The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is pulling out of the coalition. They have had a number of their airplanes involved in the fight against ISIS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11390166/Blow-to-anti-isil-coalition-as-United-Arab-Emirates-stops-air-strikes.html

It appears that they are unhappy with the leadership shown and the lack of any process to rescue downed fighters.

Hope this does not start an unravelling of the coalition leaving Canada stuck out front again.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

...Hope this does not start an unravelling of the coalition leaving Canada stuck out front again.

Interesting.....doesn't Canada ever want to lead ? Or does it only wish to follow ?

[dre]

Interesting.....doesn't Canada ever want to lead ? Or does it only wish to follow ?

Nobody wants to be the leader on a doomed mission planned by retards.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nobody wants to be the leader on a doomed mission planned by retards.

Oh...you mean like Rwanda ? Great leadership !

[Big Guy]

Hey dre - You mean like "It is the second mouse that gets the cheese in the mouse trap."?

[Bonam]

The primary goal is to free Sunnis from Shia rule. Their core goal is the oath they swore when ISIL was created back in 2006.

...

But yeah... We are going to force 20+ million sunnis to submit to rule by Iranian shia proxy... From the cockpit of a fighter jet at 10000 feet. What a great idea The people that planned or support this could not think their way out of a wet paper bag.

I find it interesting that people seem to recognize that forcing different ethnic/religious groups to live together is a bad idea when discussing situations in the Middle-East or other parts of the world. And yet when it comes to Western countries, the same people keep telling us that the best thing we could possibly do is have all these different ethnic/religious groups, with their age old conflicts, living together. If "multiculturalism" is such a great thing, why isn't it working in places like Iraq and Syria, with their rich tapestries of multiple cultures?

It seems to me like conflict is reduced by letting ethnic/religious groups that have conflicts with each other live separately, having their own sovereign states where they can devise laws to best reflect their majority culture and values. Once you have all these sovereign states that are internally homogeneous and stable, all you have to do is keep peace between the states, which is easier to do than trying to keep peace between thousands of separate factions within heterogeneous states.

A libertarian atheist likely has very different values than a devout Muslim when it comes to how government should be run and what kinds of laws should be on the books. Why design our societies to forcefully mix these kinds of groups under the same laws, which clearly cannot please both? The era of empires is over, there is no more reason to try to control far-flung and clashing cultures under the same centralized government.

[Big Guy]

I believe that the difference is that those from these warring regions who are in the West have left because they reject the fanatical extreme elements that have poisoned any chance of living in harmony.

Also, in the West, these groups are now living with many other cultures and nationalities. It is not Sunni vs Shia but Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, Hindu etc. There is no longer one group that they may consider to be enemies but a whole bunch of cultures from all over the world. The first generation of immigrants may still harbor same cultural assumptions and hate towards another group but the second generation is Canadian or American or ...

[eyeball]

I find it interesting that people seem to recognize that forcing different ethnic/religious groups to live together is a bad idea when discussing situations in the Middle-East or other parts of the world. And yet when it comes to Western countries, the same people keep telling us that the best thing we could possibly do is have all these different ethnic/religious groups, with their age old conflicts, living together. If "multiculturalism" is such a great thing, why isn't it working in places like Iraq and Syria, with their rich tapestries of multiple cultures?

My guess is all the super-powers, dictators, warlords and coalitions thereof that are exacerbating and exploiting those cultural differences for their own selfish reasons - often killing hundreds of thousands of people in the process.

It stands to reason the fact we don't have super-powers, dictators, warlords and coalitions thereof dividing and killing us in our hundreds thousands might explain why multiculturalism works much better here. Tough break eh?

[Bonam]

I believe that the difference is that those from these warring regions who are in the West have left because they reject the fanatical extreme elements that have poisoned any chance of living in harmony.

Also, in the West, these groups are now living with many other cultures and nationalities. It is not Sunni vs Shia but Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, Hindu etc. There is no longer one group that they may consider to be enemies but a whole bunch of cultures from all over the world. The first generation of immigrants may still harbor same cultural assumptions and hate towards another group but the second generation is Canadian or American or ...

They may reject some of the extreme elements and some of the specific historical hate towards other groups may fade, but the stark difference in culture and values still remains. These stark differences exist even without considering different cultures from other parts of the world, consider the cultural difference between socially conservative Christians and progressive liberals in the US, which already causes political polarization, tension, and dysfunction. This is only further exacerbated by bringing in people with even more disparate beliefs.

[jbg]

My guess is all the super-powers, dictators, warlords and coalitions thereof that are exacerbating and exploiting those cultural differences for their own selfish reasons - often killing hundreds of thousands of people in the process.

It stands to reason the fact we don't have super-powers, dictators, warlords and coalitions thereof dividing and killing us in our hundreds thousands might explain why multiculturalism works much better here. Tough break eh?

Ah yes, without the Big Bad West these s***holes would be paradise. Go figure.

[Michael Hardner]

They may reject some of the extreme elements and some of the specific historical hate towards other groups may fade, but the stark difference in culture and values still remains.

It doesn't. There were no Americans 300 years ago, but ask any American what their heritage is and they won't be sure. Immigration to the west is the cultural memory eraser at the end of the pencil. People who share my last name in the US have a Jewish background but they don't have a Jewish name. They are as generically American as anybody and don't care about pogroms, Palestine or anything foreign.