Ferguson unrest

Argus · August 21, 2014

That's ridiculous.

Cops are only justified in shooting if their life is in immediate danger - ie, self-defence.

You are quite wrong.

Argus · August 21, 2014

Which is the problem. They didn't take any time at all to assess the situation and the threat level. They went straight to DEFCON 2. OH yeah: and then they lied about key details afterwards. So, why is it that people expect the worst from cops?

I don't think they had a whole lot of time to assess the situation. As soon as they stopped the guy started moving towards them. I can't see if he had a knife in his hand but no one is saying he didn't. Police are trained to respond to a knife with a gun. I agree they need better training in de-escalating situations. That was the situation in Toronto, as well, where police put little effort into de-escelating, but instead shouted at the guy from the door of the street car and pointed guns at him. That was also the situation in Vancouver with the RCMP and the Polish guy.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Argus

guyser · August 21, 2014

Boy did you miss the point on that one.

Guyser was not saying Brown was stopped because he was black, but that black people being stopped by police for no reason beyond being black is as routine as traffic instructions.

I can only hope theres a capice on this now.

Thanks BD

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

If you're not doing anything illegal to justify the cops confronting you, you should be able to do that shit.

And herein lies the problem.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Hal 9000

Black Dog · August 21, 2014

I don't think they had a whole lot of time to assess the situation. As soon as they stopped the guy started moving towards them.

Not true. Watch the video again. Powell is several yards away and backs up as the patrol car pulls up. He only begins to move towards the cops when they get out of the car with guns drawn (1:27 of the clip).

If they had no time to assess the situation, it is only because they didn't bother to take it.

I can't see if he had a knife in his hand but no one is saying he didn't. Police are trained to respond to a knife with a gun.

They claimed he had his arms raised, holding the knife high. In the video, his arms are by his side.

Just to clarify: I'm not saying that this wasn't "by the book". But if it was, maybe the book needs a rewrite.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Black Dog

Black Dog · August 21, 2014

And herein lies the problem.

That cops are often thin-skinned meatheads with delusions of grandeur who don't understand the limitations of their powers? Yes, that is a problem.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Black Dog

sharkman · August 21, 2014

BC, I love it how the Brown defenders ignore the video. It's a home run on the situation, and can't be excused, so they just ignore it. Favorite line in the video? Too many to pick just one! They should show the video in all Jr high schools, swearing and all.

Black Dog · August 21, 2014

BC, I love it how the Brown defenders ignore the video. It's a home run on the situation, and can't be excused, so they just ignore it. Favorite line in the video? Too many to pick just one! They should show the video in all Jr high schools, swearing and all.

What video?

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

That cops are often thin-skinned meatheads with delusions of grandeur who don't understand the limitations of their powers? Yes, that is a problem.

I don't disagree with that sentiment, but the fact remains; you just can't do that and expect that the cop to just meekly get on his way. That's simply not what they're trained to do.

When they ask you to move, you move or they'll move you. When they ask you to get out of your car, you get out or they'll get you out. If they want to see your ID, they'll see your ID. These aren't your parents, friends or your boss, they're police and getting in their face to explain "your rights" doesn't usually end well.

Black Dog · August 21, 2014

I don't disagree with that sentiment, but the fact remains; you just can't do that and expect that the cop to just meekly get on his way. That's simply not what they're trained to do.

When they ask you to move, you move or they'll move you. When they ask you to get out of your car, you get out or they'll get you out. If they want to see your ID, they'll see your ID. These aren't your parents, friends or your boss, they're police and getting in their face to explain "your rights" doesn't usually end well.

OK, so you understand cops can be total ignorant pricks. So take that, add racial animus (not necessarily overt racism, but a deep-seeded suspicion or distrust of person's of colour) and maybe you can understand why black people have a fraught relationship with police and why routine interactions you might see as no big deal come weighted with all kinds of baggage when it's a black person involved.

guyser · August 21, 2014

If they want to see your ID, they'll see your ID.

Absent any legal reason to request my ID , IOW, not ins a car, not doing anything but minding my own business, they dont get my ID.

And how do I know that? I dont carry any ID on me for the most part.

Thats not to say some dickhead cop may detain me for nefarious reasoning, but then I have avenues at my disposal to be compensated for his violating my rights .

BD post above explains it beautifully

PIK · August 21, 2014

That cops are often thin-skinned meatheads with delusions of grandeur who don't understand the limitations of their powers? Yes, that is a problem.

Well said, they act more like the cops on rookie blue.

GostHacked · August 21, 2014

You are quite wrong.

She is partly right, but there has to be a clear threat to the cop's life. The number of cops who get off from killing people, while the investigation says that the cop acted within guidelines and no excessive force was used, happens quite often apparently. You have a culture of cover up within the police forces. It does not make it right at all, and this is part of the problem that needs to be addresses. Especially when we see the extensive militarization of police.

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

OK, so you understand cops can be total ignorant pricks. So take that, add racial animus (not necessarily overt racism, but a deep-seeded suspicion or distrust of person's of colour) and maybe you can understand why black people have a fraught relationship with police and why routine interactions you might see as no big deal come weighted with all kinds of baggage when it's a black person involved.

Oh, I do understand. What I also understand is that these interactions are also addressed poorly on behalf of the people. You guys are suggesting that it's Ok to be rude and obstinate to any cop who asks for the simplest things. These actions always come with consequences, freedom and rights don't mean consequence free actions. You must also understand that cops go through every day with these punks teenage guys telling them to F-off. So, lets not pretend that It's all one sided.

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

Absent any legal reason to request my ID , IOW, not ins a car, not doing anything but minding my own business, they dont get my ID.

And how do I know that? I dont carry any ID on me for the most part.

Thats not to say some dickhead cop may detain me for nefarious reasoning, but then I have avenues at my disposal to be compensated for his violating my rights .

BD post above explains it beautifully

I'd love to see that!

guyser · August 21, 2014

I'd love to see that!

You'd love to see rights violated?

Why?

But ok. If I dont have ID , and the request comes as I am minding my own business, I tell them I dont have it.

sharkman · August 21, 2014

I am completely surprised at the ignorant attitudes toward the police. Some of you sound like total jerks quite frankly. But I must take the time now and thank you. I thank you sincerely, for it's your stupidity that makes my interaction with the police so pleasant. I've been pulled over a few times in the last decade for various road related offences, mostly speeding. I treat the officer with respect and manners, and speak only to answer his questions. For instance, one cop asked me if I knew how fast I was doing and I replied 79km. He said, you were doing 80 in a 60 zone. And you know what? No ticket, he just asked me not to speed for the rest of the day. I've received warnings instead of tickets 2 other times because of your rude behavior to the cops.

They leave me alone, and ticket the loud mouth jerk who can't keep his cool. Keep up the good work fellas.

Black Dog · August 21, 2014

Oh, I do understand. What I also understand is that these interactions are also addressed poorly on behalf of the people. You guys are suggesting that it's Ok to be rude and obstinate to any cop who asks for the simplest things.

I'm suggesting that if someone is rude and obstinate, cops just need to suck it up like the rest of us. Actually, they need to be even better than that. They get a ton of special privileges as a result of their position and with that comes the responsibility to model exemplary behaviour. But far too many take those powers as license to do pretty much whatever the hell they want.

These actions always come with consequences, freedom and rights don't mean consequence free actions.

Unless you're a cop, in which case, good luck facing any consequences.

I am curious: what's an appropriate consequence of rudeness to police?

You must also understand that cops go through every day with these punks teenage guys telling them to F-off. So, lets not pretend that It's all one sided.

Cry me a river. Don't want people being dicks to you, don't be a cop. In particular, don't be a thin-skinned meat head. Understand your role and how you are perceived.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Black Dog

Black Dog · August 21, 2014

I am completely surprised at the ignorant attitudes toward the police. Some of you sound like total jerks quite frankly. But I must take the time now and thank you. I thank you sincerely, for it's your stupidity that makes my interaction with the police so pleasant. I've been pulled over a few times in the last decade for various road related offences, mostly speeding. I treat the officer with respect and manners, and speak only to answer his questions. For instance, one cop asked me if I knew how fast I was doing and I replied 79km. He said, you were doing 80 in a 60 zone. And you know what? No ticket, he just asked me not to speed for the rest of the day. I've received warnings instead of tickets 2 other times because of your rude behavior to the cops.

They leave me alone, and ticket the loud mouth jerk who can't keep his cool. Keep up the good work fellas.

I highly doubt that's the reason why.

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

You'd love to see rights violated?

Why?

But ok. If I dont have ID , and the request comes as I am minding my own business, I tell them I dont have it.

You'd love to see rights violated?

Why?

But ok. If I dont have ID , and the request comes as I am minding my own business, I tell them I dont have it.

But, are you gonna get in his face and tell about your rights and how he should go catch the real criminals that you're paying him to catch?

Chances are, he asks you to sit in his car or best case, you stand in front of his car while he gets on his computer and checks you out - either way, he's gonna get the info that he wants.

guyser · August 21, 2014

But, are you gonna get in his face and tell about your rights and how he should go catch the real criminals that you're paying him to catch?

Not in the slightest. While it may appear (apparently so to sharkman) that I am 'one of those types' , I am most definitely not .

I will however give what I get. If the cop wants to start by being a dick, then he gets pretty much that right back.

If he wants to be respectful, he gets that in spades from me in return.

Chances are, he asks you to sit in his car or best case, you stand in front of his car while he gets on his computer and checks you out - either way, he's gonna get the info that he wants.

Here is where we differ.

I am walking along minding my own business, or p[erhaps on my own property. He asks for ID, I tell him, no-dont have any and none of your business. Legally he has no reason to detain me.So, I keep walking or sit down on my porch. If he makes it an issue then thats his business and I will do what I need to do after the fact.

You realize, absent of PC, they have no reason to ask for ID nor to detain you.

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

I'm suggesting that if someone is rude and obstinate, cops just need to suck it up like the rest of us. Actually, they need to be even better than that. They get a ton of special privileges as a result of their position and with that comes the responsibility to model exemplary behaviour. But far too many take those powers as license to do pretty much whatever the hell they want.

Unless you're a cop, in which case, good luck facing any consequences.

I am curious: what's an appropriate consequence of rudeness to police?

Cry me a river. Don't want people being dicks to you, don't be a cop. In particular, don't be a thin-skinned meat head. Understand your role and how you are perceived.

Nobody's crying anything - not me anyway!

You wanna be treated with ree-spect, act respectful. It's like I tell my kids, you wanna be treated like a grown-up, act like a grown-up. You wanna be treated like an equal, act like an equal. In most cases, people get treated exactly like the act.

bush_cheney2004 · August 21, 2014

.... And you know what? No ticket, he just asked me not to speed for the rest of the day. I've received warnings instead of tickets 2 other times because of your rude behavior to the cops.

They leave me alone, and ticket the loud mouth jerk who can't keep his cool. Keep up the good work fellas.

I agree 100%....have received far more warnings than tickets simply by cooperating with the police officer or trooper, who has a job to do. One time, a trooper lasered me way over the limit from a highway ambush, so I pulled over as soon as he caught up to me...no lights or siren...just immediate acknowledgement and compliance with the drill. No ticket.....just a very pleasant conversation and a promise to lay off the gas pedal. It also helps to be buckled up and ready proof of insurance. Having a valid license and no warrants helps too !

Hal 9000 · August 21, 2014

Not in the slightest. While it may appear (apparently so to sharkman) that I am 'one of those types' , I am most definitely not .

I will however give what I get. If the cop wants to start by being a dick, then he gets pretty much that right back.

If he wants to be respectful, he gets that in spades from me in return.

Here is where we differ.

I am walking along minding my own business, or p[erhaps on my own property. He asks for ID, I tell him, no-dont have any and none of your business. Legally he has no reason to detain me.So, I keep walking or sit down on my porch. If he makes it an issue then thats his business and I will do what I need to do after the fact.

You realize, absent of PC, they have no reason to ask for ID nor to detain you.

I hate giving personal info but, I did that exact thing.

Walking down the road, stopped for ID - gave the "not doing anything wrong, what are the charges" routine and walked by, felt a hand on my shoulder, shrugged it off and before I knew it I was on the ground in cuffs - spent the night in jail - no charges thankfully.

Anyway, there is a charge of "obstruction of a peace officer" that is simply for non compliance, which they'd be justified to give you for the actions that you described.

guyser · August 21, 2014

I've been pulled over a few times in the last decade for various road related offences, mostly speeding. I treat the officer with respect and manners, and speak only to answer his questions.

They leave me alone, and ticket the loud mouth jerk who can't keep his cool. Keep up the good work fellas.

As do I , but if a Cop comes to me spewing outright bullshit and lies, then they lose any respect I have .

I have 2 tickets in 10 years. ONe was for doing 130 in a 90. Saw the Cop, pulled over before he could come onto the highway (HWY 11 below Gravenhurst) TOld him why I was speeding , an urgent hospital run, and then got the bullshit from him. When he ticketed me, he decided to be an uber dick and question me on why the damage to my bumper does not have a Police sticker on it. He said because its the law.

Thats when he got an earful. I told him he was full of shit and to go back to school since the damage he is looking at is decidely below the reporting threshhold. As I was saying it, I was putting up my window and I drove off leaving him standing on the highway. Why not, he gave me back my licence et al, so I am free to go.

The second time was again for speeding, and this cop already must have had a bad day. He started screaming about me 'flying past me'. I looked at him, said calm down, I was doing 122 in a 100 zone and you yourself were going at least 110, so how could anyone fly by at 10K?

And when he refused my written (on the spot) liability slip (had borrowed another car I insured) he would not accept it as valid.

He asked how do I know you are who you say? I asked him how do I know youre a cop? I showed him proof, he didnt take it. So I happily accepted the ticket since I knew I would be able to beat him in court. And I did. The court recongnized my authority to do what I wanted to do.

I had fun walking out past him later. Gave him a few words too.

Give respect, get it back. Be a dick, get it back.