kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Black Dog]

And what if Israel wants to define itself as a Jewish state.

They are free to. Why is it so important that others recognize it as such? Certainly wasn't a precondition of their peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. So why make that a sticking point?

[Boges]

They are free to. Why is it so important that others recognize it as such? Certainly wasn't a precondition of their peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. So why make that a sticking point?

Why is Hamas making it a sticking point that they shouldn't be one?

[Black Dog]

Why is Hamas making it a sticking point that they shouldn't be one?

Because Hamas are vile anti-Semites and probably aren't the people Israel would be negotiating with on a two state solution anyway. Now, please do us the courtesy of telling us why it's so important now when it was not in the past.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Black Dog

[jbg]

You are right. However, it did happen. It's very tragic that these teenagers were massacred. And it goes on and on and on. Netanyahu has the defence capabilities to show some leadership and end this. He can take the high road, much as most male aggressive leaders would not bow down to this kind of behaviour.

Taking the high road in this case is impossible. Woud the U.S. tolerate this kind of activity emanating from the Mexican border? Pancho Villa tried it in the 1910's. Hint, it didn't end well.

[Boges]

Because Hamas are vile anti-Semites and probably aren't the people Israel would be negotiating with on a two state solution anyway. Now, please do us the courtesy of telling us why it's so important now when it was not in the past.

I'm not expert but negotiating with Egypt and Jordan is different than negotiating with people that feel they're entitled to the land the country of Israel exists upon.

I believe I read Rue say that if the state wasn't officially labelled as Jewish then Arabs might overwhelm the government because Israel is the only pluralistic democracy in the region.

[TimG]

Because Hamas are vile anti-Semites and probably aren't the people Israel would be negotiating with on a two state solution anyway. Now, please do us the courtesy of telling us why it's so important now when it was not in the past.

Hamas was ELECTED by Palestinians in 2006 so it follows that Hamas could be running the government of the future Palestinian state. This makes it necessary for Hamas to commit to the principals of any negotiated settlement - including an acknowledgement that Israel has a right to exist. Without that commitment any agreement would be a waste of time because Hamas would simply ignore it when they came to power. Edited July 29, 2014 by TimG

[Black Dog]

I'm not expert but negotiating with Egypt and Jordan is different than negotiating with people that feel they're entitled to the land the country of Israel exists upon.

It doesn't take a negotiating expert to see that putting a useless precondition like that in place is bad negotiating.

I believe I read Rue say that if the state wasn't officially labelled as Jewish then Arabs might overwhelm the government because Israel is the only pluralistic democracy in the region.

First, that's nonsense. Second, Israel can be as Jewish as it wants to be; the sticking point here is whether or not it is necessary for it to be recognized as such as part of a two state solution, which is the roadblock Israel is putting in place.

[Boges]

First, that's nonsense. Second, Israel can be as Jewish as it wants to be; the sticking point here is whether or not it is necessary for it to be recognized as such as part of a two state solution, which is the roadblock Israel is putting in place.

I suspect the existence of Hamas itself is the biggest roadblock actually.

[Black Dog]

Hamas was ELECTED by Palestinians in 2006 so it follows that Hamas could be running the government of the future Palestinian state. This makes it necessary for Hamas to commit to the principals of any negotiated settlement - including an acknowledgement that Israel has a right to exist. Without that commitment any agreement would be a waste of time because Hamas would simply ignore it when they came to power.

Before all this recent shit hit the fan, Hamas pursuing a unity government with Fatah which would have recognized Israel and led to new elections. i suspect Israel recognized its weakness, which is why they opted to stir the pot.

I suspect the existence of Hamas itself is the biggest roadblock actually.

I'm still waiting for an actual answer to the question.

[TimG]

Before all this recent shit hit the fan, Hamas pursuing a unity government with Fatah which would have recognized Israel and led to new elections.

So now you are arguing that Hamas was willing to recognize Israel within the unity gov't?

If so what is the problem with requiring this for a future deal?

Edited July 29, 2014 by TimG

[Black Dog]

So now you are arguing that Hamas was willing to recognize Israel within the unity gov't?

If so what is the problem with requiring this for a future deal?

Recognizing Israel and recognizing Israel as a Jewish state are two different things. The latter is the one that people keep saying is a necessary precondition to peace. I've yet to see an answer as to why that is the case.

[TimG]

Recognizing Israel and recognizing Israel as a Jewish state are two different things. The latter is the one that people keep saying is a necessary precondition to peace. I've yet to see an answer as to why that is the case.

Irrelevant semantics. Recognizing Israel means recognizing it as a Jewish state. Hamas is playing dishonest games if it thinks it can separate the too. Personally, I don't believe that this "unity government" really meant Hamas was going to recognize Israel. It was an attempt by the PA to get Hamas to shut up in return for power.

[Black Dog]

Irrelevant semantics. Recognizing Israel means recognizing it as a Jewish state. Hamas is playing dishonest games if it thinks it can separate the too.

"Irrelevant semantics?" Tell that to the Israeli government and those who support this condition.

Still no answer to the question of why this insistence on recognition of Israel as a Jewish state has emerged as a dealbreaker. Again: this is Israel's position and demand, though it did not require it in previous settlements with its adversaries (as in Egypt and Jordan) or past negotiations with the Palestinians.

Personally, I believe it is another example of Netenyahu and the Likudniks intentional obstructionism to include such a demand.

[jbg]

We need different approaches. I'm just suggesting something other than what is going on because it is obviously not working.

Such as, surrender?

[The_Squid]

Such as, surrender?

Yes, that's the only choice.... Nuclear option or outright surrender.... Nothing in between and certainly no peaceful solutions.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh sure...lots of desire for "peace" now that Israel is hammering the crap out of Hamas' military infrastructure. Where were the calls for "peace" around here when thousands of rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza ?

[Black Dog]

Such as, surrender?

I guess there's always your favoured solution of wiping out everyone in Gaza.

Or, you know, a negotiated settlement.

[The_Squid]

Oh sure...lots of desire for "peace" now that Israel is hammering the crap out of Hamas' military infrastructure. Where were the calls for "peace" around here when thousands of rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza ?

Everyone must just be "pro-Hamas", or anti-Semitic I guess.....

[Big Guy]

A

Yes, that's the only choice.... Nuclear option or outright surrender.... Nothing in between and certainly no peaceful solutions.

I too cannot foresee a political solution. Too much blood spilt, too many dead, too many potential suicide bombers and too much hate on both sides. I would assume that a successful military solution would be gained by Israel as the "winner" since it has the overwhelming military strength and weapons - but I would not bet on it.

To-day, with chemical and biological (and a few missing nuclear) weapons floating around Europe that it is not outside the realm of possibility that a small group of dedicated Hamas fanatics, bent on suicide, could unleash death and destruction to hundreds of thousands of Israelis in Tel Aviv and other urban centres. Perhaps the slaughter of half the populations on both sides would force the leaderships to negotiate. Before you dismiss that possibility I suggest that you consider what the results would have been had those airliners during 9/11 going into those building in New York were also carrying payloads of something like Anthrax or Ebola virus. Terrorist specialists have been warning us for years about the susceptibility of our water sources. All it takes is one fanatic bent on suicide and taking as many of the other side with him/her as possible.

The other possibility is always the final solution.

BTW - Has Hamas taken credit/responsibility for the deaths of those 3 teenagers - the spark that lit the fuse that blew up Gaza?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Big Guy

[jacee]

And what if Israel wants to define itself as a Jewish state.

Israel can define itself however it wishes.

Internationally, Israel is recognized as a state.

For Israel to continually grovel and whine to Hamas, Palestine or any other Arab states that they must recognize Israel as a 'Jewish state' just makes Israel look pathetic, weak, dependent on the approval of others.

.

.

[dre]

Irrelevant semantics. Recognizing Israel means recognizing it as a Jewish state. Hamas is playing dishonest games if it thinks it can separate the too. Personally, I don't believe that this "unity government" really meant Hamas was going to recognize Israel. It was an attempt by the PA to get Hamas to shut up in return for power.

No it doesnt. All thats required is that a Palestinian state recognize Israels sovereignty, and the borders/territory agree on as part of any two state solution.

Expecting any more than this complicates something that is already exceedingly dificult and this particular demand is a poison pill to make sure negotiations fail.

[bush_cheney2004]

Everyone must just be "pro-Hamas", or anti-Semitic I guess.....

Everyone doesn't matter here...."we want peace" is easy for Americans or Canadians watching it on TV.

I guess "peace" means Hamas shooting thousands of rockets that are (mostly) intercepted by Iron Dome when threatening or wildly inaccurate, but still kill and injure Israelis. Well guess what..."peace" for Israel means strike fighters, artillery, mortars, tanks, D9's, and invasion to demilitarize Gaza.

Edited July 29, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[jacee]

I suspect the existence of Hamas itself is the biggest roadblock actually.

Hamas exists to fight the Israeli seige and oppression of Gaza, and illegal Israeli settlements.

IE, Hamas exists to fight aggressive and illegal Israeli expansionism.

.

Edited July 29, 2014 by jacee

[PIK]

OK: how?

Go in with both hands instead of one tied behind your back and screw what the media thinks. Trying to be nice just draws out wars and in the end more civilians get killed.

[dre]

A

I too cannot foresee a political solution. Too much blood spilt, too many dead, too many potential suicide bombers and too much hate on both sides. I would assume that a successful military solution would be gained by Israel as the "winner" since it has the overwhelming military strength and weapons - but I would not bet on it.

To-day, with chemical and biological (and a few missing nuclear) weapons floating around Europe that it is not outside the realm of possibility that a small group of dedicated Hamas fanatics, bent on suicide, could unleash death and destruction to hundreds of thousands of Israelis in Tel Aviv and other urban centres. Perhaps the slaughter of half the populations on both sides would force the leaderships to negotiate. Before you dismiss that possibility I suggest that you consider what the results would have been had those airliners during 9/11 going into those building in New York were also carrying payloads of something like Anthrax or Ebola virus. Terrorist specialists have been warning us for years about the susceptibility of our water sources. All it takes is one fanatic bent on suicide and taking as many of the other side with him/her as possible.

The other possibility is always the final solution.

BTW - Has Hamas taken credit/responsibility for the deaths of those 3 teenagers - the spark that lit the fuse that blew up Gaza?

The only peace that could ever happen on the dirt-farm would be the kind of peace they have on the Korean Penninsula. Theres just two many zealots on both sides, too much racism, to much religious baggage, and too much hatred.

Need a couple of 500 foot high walls about 10 miles apart with 10 billion land mines in the middle and a large international force ready and willing to crush either side that tries to poke a stick at the other.

In any case its pure fantasy. Those two gangs of maniacle religious retards (hawks on both sides) will be embarassing the human race for centuries to come.