cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 That's a pretty harsh attack against folks who disagree with Israel's slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians. (to borrow your phrase)And well deserved when they condone and even celebrate the targeting of innocent civilians by Hamas. I'm disgusted with both Israel and Hamas. I find it completely unconscionable that anyone would justify or otherwise condone anyone trying to murder innocent civilians, regardless of which side they're on. Yet time and time again, we have people who see Israelis as disposable in the fight for Palestinian independence. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 The latest reports have over 300 Palestinian civilians killed and more hundreds wounded – and 1 Israeli civilian and 1 Israeli soldier (reported as a casualty of friendly fire) killed and 5 wounded.Not for lack of trying. Israel has spent millions if not billions on defending itself against these attacks. If someone did a drive by and fired a bunch of bullets into your house but missed you because you were in your basement, do you think they should just walk free? That there should be no punishment? No justice? Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Where are they going to hide? Israel won't allow them to have a standing military, so by that one should expect these guerrilla tactics. How else are you going to fight off an occupation?Nowhere else, but don't act surprised and indignant when you launch rockets at an enemy orders of magnitude more powerful than you and they fight back. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sMAxFlldes What is Israel's stance on arresting children? What's Hamas's stance on using them to attack Israel? Quote
Big Guy Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Not for lack of trying. Israel has spent millions if not billions on defending itself against these attacks. If someone did a drive by and fired a bunch of bullets into your house but missed you because you were in your basement, do you think they should just walk free? That there should be no punishment? No justice? There is no justice in war. The stronger beat the weaker. It makes no difference who is right ort who is wrong. "If someone did a drive by and fired a bunch of bullets into your house but missed you because you were in your basement, do you think they should just walk free?" No. If I was angry enough I would find out where they lived and perhaps fire a bunch of bullets into their house, when only the shooters were at home. But what I would NOT do, Is take a bunch of tanks, invade the shooters neighbourhood and level the house killing everybody in it. Then wipe out the adjoining houses and then level the neighbors housess and kill everybody on the block. After all, its their fault for living so close to the shooters - is it not? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
GostHacked Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 What's Hamas's stance on using them to attack Israel? Resource raping. Large gas deposits worth about 4 billion is right off Gaza's shore. That is within the range of claimed territorial waters through international law I would believe. Every nation that has a shoreline on the oceans have a 250km region from the shore. If these two oil rigs are within Gaza's waters, this is outright theft. We can keep going on that this is some stupid existential war between two peoples, but there is more at play and specifically with resources and land that has great tactical advantage. What could Palestinians do with 4 billion dollars worth of gas reserves? But instead that is going elsewhere. Water, land and energy reserves is the real war. Quote
Boges Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) It's pretty clear Hamas wants children and civilians to die. They're hoping people will be outraged. The typical crowd will. But not enough to change anything. If anything this tactics should make reasonable people offended by their tactics. BTW why can't the people of Gaza go to Egypt for help? It appears Muslims don't like to help their own. They'd prefer to us them as tools for propaganda. Edited July 19, 2014 by Boges Quote
GostHacked Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 It appears Muslims don't like to help their own. They'd prefer to us them as tools for propaganda. So you reply to propaganda with more propaganda? Looks like some have not been able to put down the paint brush. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) In this one sided war, it appears that a few onlookers have no problems with one side having much greater firepower, money, organization and assets. The Palestinians have been dehumanized by the West and Israel so the "collateral damage" of innocent civilians is spun as acceptable. It appears that Israelis believe that Palestinians will never accept the presence of Jews in that area so it will be a gradual takeover of land over years and years until Israel has settled all the land. It will probably work. Every year there are more Palestinians killed and more Israeli settlements being built. Israel is far richer, has far more military might (including the bomb), and the support of the USA and Canada. There is a more efficient method of getting rid of the Palestinian society. There is a final solution. Edited July 19, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Hal 9000 Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 /Hamas-publishes-cease-fire-initiative Hamas and other Palestiniian armed groups in the Gaza Strip on Saturday published their own initiative for a cease-fire with Israel. The initiative, which is backed by Qatar, calls for an immediate and comprehensive cease-fire, the lifting of the blockade imposed on the Gaza Strip eight years ago and the release of Palestinians who were arrested by Israel in recent weeks in the West Bank. According to the website Al-Arabi Al-Jadeed, Qatar has delivered the initiative to US Secretary of State John Kerry, who, in turn, relayed it to Israel.It claimed that the initiative has been sponsored by the US, Qatar and Turkey. The initiative calls for activating the port in the Gaza Strip to allow goods and fuel to enter the area. It also calls for an end to the economic and financial sanctions imposed on the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The US is sponsoring this? That's a surprising turn of events. A turning point? . I guarantee that there is more to it than what is reported. If it is as written, it can only mean that Hamas is out of rockets. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Boges Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 So you reply to propaganda with more propaganda? Looks like some have not been able to put down the paint brush. I don't think Israel is all that concerned with propaganda. They're defending their border. Hamas' goal would have Israel not exist. So how would any of us want our respective Nations to respond to a group that wants complete destruction for you. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) I don't think Israel is all that concerned with propaganda. They're defending their border. That is part of the propaganda techniques to garner public and international support. It's not your propaganda, obviously. But you have bought into it via their propaganda. Hamas' goal would have Israel not exist. So how would any of us want our respective Nations to respond to a group that wants complete destruction for you. The Jewish people have the right to exist. Israel does not have that same guarantee aside from asserting the fact through it's own projection of force and international influence. Took a lot of canvasing the international community to support the notion of creating Israel in an area that they really have no legitimate right to return. Jews not born in Israel and have no stake in the conflict can easily move to and live in Israel. People that have been living there during the creation did not have that same 'right'. So close 80 years later, the conflict is still ongoing. Has been for even longer than that. The right for Israel to exist is through defending the contested land through military dominance. Pure and simple. As soon as Israel was 'created' in 1948 a long war begain in which Israel easily won. How does a brand new budding country borne in the middle of complete conflict in the Middle East manage to have that kind of firepower without some help from other high level people in some nations? The right for the Palestinians to exist is going to be by the same methods. Through force. 'You can live here, but it is called Israel'. Some obviously have a problem with that. Nation's do not have that right or guarantee to exist other than through military force based on history of countries coming and going. Not even Canada is going to last forever. Edited July 19, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 There is no justice in war.Which undermines the position of criticizing Israel doesn't it? If you're just going to shrug and say there's "no justice in war" then you have no foot to stand on for criticizing injustices. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Which undermines the position of criticizing Israel doesn't it? If you're just going to shrug and say there's "no justice in war" then you have no foot to stand on for criticizing injustices. I am criticizing war. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I guarantee that there is more to it than what is reported. If it is as written, it can only mean that Hamas is out of rockets. What such a 'peace treaty' would do would be give Hamas an enormous victory. By firing off rockets at Israel they would have, in the minds of the Palestinian people, forced Israel to bow to their demands and eliminate border controls. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I am criticizing war.No you're not. You're criticizing Israel and giving Hamas a pass because Israel happens to be able to defend against terrorist. Quote
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I am criticizing war. Mighty brave of you. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Rue Posted July 19, 2014 Author Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) I am now reading the posts and notice a response from Blackdog asking me for proof of the humanitarian aid Israel has given Palestinians. Lol, Blackdog still has this concept that I serve him. Not my lifestyle. If he wants to go find out what Israel has done in terms of charitable aid transfers to the West Bank and Gaza he can go on the internet and find out for himself. Obviously if I give him any info he will claim its ZIONIST PROPAGADA. Yah I dig the way its played out on this forum, Deny, demand, be given, then dismiss it as bias. I don't play that game. For those of you who are interested you can look at www.mfa.gov.il/ma/foreignpolicy/peace/humanitarian/page/default.aspx. Right now 50% of electricity from Gaza comes from the Israeli Power Authority even during this latest attack on Isral. The Haddassah medical organization donates approximately $3 million per year to treat Palestinians and regularly treats Palestinians of all ages but especially children. For example it send 44,500 immunization kit to the West Bank during a swine flu outbreak. Since 2011 Israel increased the number of Palestinian work permits for Palestinians o work in Israel by 40%. Blackdog can find out for himself how any millions Israel spent funding Muslim charities in Gaza to build schools, hospitals, mosques, road, community centres, green-houses and hospitals only to have them all blown up when the current terror cell took over Hamas. He can also go find out for himself how many Palestinians in Gaza were killed for working in Israel or accepting charitable services from Israeli financed projects. He can also ask himself, how is it with the billions in aid The PA has received it has built no hospitals and is always bankrupt so much so that in September 2012, Israel had to send them $250 million in shekels, then another $180 million in July of the same year. He might also want to ask himself why Hamas blew up its infrastructure, killed its own citizens, and takes every penny of foreign aid to by missiles form Iran. Somebody can also explain to Blackdog how the Hamas leader sent his one year old grand-daughter to Israel for emergency medical treatment in November of 2013. His brother in law was provided heart surgery in Tel Aviv in 2012. Yep I would say there is a lot Blackdog could find out if he wanted to on his own instead of asking moi. He would find out for example that each month hundreds of Gaza citizens come to Israel for free medical care as to Palestinians from the West Bank. Edited July 19, 2014 by Rue Quote
marcus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Since 2011 Israel increased the number of Palestinian work permits for Palestinians o work in Israel by 40%. How amazingly charitable of the occupying power who has suppressed the Palestinian economy by controlling its import/export, controlling its natural resources, holding back tax money they collect on their behalf and hundreds of other ways of holding them back by offering work permits so that the Palestinians can work low wage jobs israelis will not do, but some Palestinians will do, just so they could feed their children. Edited July 20, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
jacee Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 And well deserved when they condone and even celebrate the targeting of innocent civilians by Hamas.Beg pardon?How many Israeli civilian casualties? "Targetting"? Please. The rockets create fear, granted, but they aren't "targetting" anything much, except maybe dirt. I'm disgusted with both Israel and Hamas. I find it completely unconscionable that anyone would justify or otherwise condone anyone trying to murder innocent civilians, regardless of which side they're on. That makes sense. Agreed. Yet time and time again, we have people who see Israelis as disposable in the fight for Palestinian independence.Oh pu-leez!CITE!! Show me who has done that!! How many Palestinian children has Israel disposed of this week?!! . Quote
jacee Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) What's Hamas's stance on using them to attack Israel? Are you just accusing based on stereotyping? Can you prove that those two children did anything wrong!!! . Edited July 19, 2014 by jacee Quote
Guest Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) The rockets create fear, granted, but they aren't "targetting" anything much, except maybe dirt. If that is the case, why does Hamas allow its own civilians to die to ensure they are fired? What possible reason could Hamas have for wanting such a death toll on their side, if their rockets are useless? Edited July 19, 2014 by bcsapper Quote
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 If that is the case, why does Hamas allow its own civilians to die to ensure they are fired? What possible reason could Hamas have for wanting such a death toll on their side, if their rockets are useless? Those are biased, loaded, insincere rhetorical questions without a shred of truth and designed to provoke an angry response. Well here it is ... . Quote
Guest Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 They were genuine questions. There are those who think that Hamas aim for the propaganda benefits of a high Palestinian death count. I guess, if their missiles are crap, and they know it, it's a reasonable assumption. Quote
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Further to what Argus said about proportion in the post above yours, how do you suggest Israel go about a more proportionate response? - an end to the stifling blockade. - the permanent opening of the Rafah crossing with Egypt - an arrangement to allow Gazans to pray in Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem - the release of political prisoners held by Israel. - the opening of an airport and seaport in Gaza under international administration. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/19/split-between-egypt-and-hamas-plagues-efforts-to-bring-cease-fire-in-gaza/ Quote
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