This week in Islam

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) "Wrong" is fraught with problems, as a word.  It's one-dimensional, uninteresting and exempts your point of view from having its own flaws.  

2) Mob violence is pretty tough to defend.  But also a no-brainer to criticize.  Are there deeper insights to be made about one culture vs another ?  I would like to read those.

You know very well what my view is of Pakistani culture and values as incorporated in many posts on the subject of immigration from extremist Muslim countries. Any deeper insights into why a culture like Pakistan's can breed this kind of evidently widespread fanaticism would necessarily involve criticism of Islam - which you don't like, and Pakistani culture, which you appear even less likely to approve of.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

How would you prefer to discuss group faults including those of your own group ?

With logic and honesty, without regard to who gets offended by it. 

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, now you are starting to understand what the thread is about.  Go ahead and discuss your reason, but as you live the principles nobody from said group will listen.  Instead you will have a bunch of people from your culture agreeing with each other.  It's discussion, by definition, but not engaging.

How do you propose to engage people who do not speak English - and where they do tend to shut out anything which disagrees with their interpretation of the Koran, as evidenced by the single admitted Muslim on this site? I mean, this IS a discussion site you know. We can say things like Pakistan needs to create a separation between its governing structure and Islam, and then have the former strongly reign in the latter, but no one is going to support that in Pakistan.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Argus

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, now you are starting to understand what the thread is about.  Go ahead and discuss your reason, but as you live the principles nobody from said group will listen.  Instead you will have a bunch of people from your culture agreeing with each other.  It's discussion, by definition, but not engaging.

You pretty much just described every post on this site since inception.  So what?  You're not agreeing with me.  There will be others as the day goes on, I guess.  (Although this particular point is difficult to argue against, the tarring will come up, no doubt)

It could be your point is simply that.  This is so awful, so barbaric, that no-one wil disagree so why bother posting? It's true, sometimes it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

I'll post it anyway.

Edit>  I don't have a reason.  They had a reason.  It was their religion.

Edited April 22, 2017 by bcsapper
Women never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they have a reason - Not Blaise Pascal

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

 Any deeper insights into why a culture like Pakistan's can breed this kind of evidently widespread fanaticism would necessarily involve criticism of Islam - which you don't like, and Pakistani culture, which you appear even less likely to approve of.

My words here indicate that I am looking for a way to discuss cultures.  

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

With logic and honesty, without regard to who gets offended by it. 

Then put forward a way to do so more objectively.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

How do you propose to engage people  ....

I am asking for a way to do so.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am asking for a way to do so.

That would be off topic for this discussion. If you want to discuss how international cultures fail, or the differing levels of adherence to justice and fairness, assuming there is an international norm, feel free to do so elsewhere and I'm sure others would be interested in replying.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Argus

[Rue]

Engaging people. Does it mean:

1-Offering them a ring and getting down on one knee?

2-Offering the  object of one's desire's father goats?

3-Throwing rocks at them?

4-Shooting them?

Or do you mean challenging their opinions on this board?

If you are asking about the last one why are you asking the question and not answering it yourself? You pose a rhetorical question. Make your point.

Most people feel engaging another on this board is responding, period.

I would suggest on an opinion board engagement is manifested and evidenced by response. Its quite a simple conclusion actually for if there was no response there could be no engagement.

So what is your point?

If your point is you want people to discuss religion in objective terms that's probably like asking someone to shoot at someone with a gun carefully.

Oxymoronic I would think.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

That would be off topic for this discussion. If you want to discuss how international cultures fail, or the differing levels of adherence to justice and fairness, assuming there is an international norm, feel free to do so elsewhere and I'm sure others would be interested in replying.

There do seem to be lots of people who want to complain to each other about dirty foreigners here, and how they don't accept criticism the irony being completely lost.

By all means feel free to rail and complain against groups that are separate from you.  I will wait until there are people who can discuss the topic of culture clash at a higher level than this before I start that other thread, though.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

 

If your point is you want people to discuss religion in objective terms that's probably like asking someone to shoot at someone with a gun carefully.

Oxymoronic I would think.

 

You, at least, have tried to be objective and reflexive when discussing culture.  There are a lot of people don't understand why such a thing would be interesting or worthwhile.  They have posted on this thread that they don't care what others have to say about their culture, as they moo endlessly about other cultures and their need for reform.  

I like to listen to music but usually it's more than one note.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

There do seem to be lots of people who want to complain to each other about dirty foreigners here, and how they don't accept criticism the irony being completely lost.

By all means feel free to rail and complain against groups that are separate from you.  I will wait until there are people who can discuss the topic of culture clash at a higher level than this before I start that other thread, though.

For some reason you invoke the "dirty foreigner" nonsense instead of actually expressing an opinion. Three women get together to kill someone who said something they didn't like thirteen years ago. I find that worthy of both comment and disgust, but it's actually because I don't like dirty foreigners?

You probably feel the same way I do about the incident, but the dirty foreigner thing means you would prefer no one mention it.  Not even the newspapers, I suppose. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by bcsapper
Women never do evil so completely and cheerfully as they do after a nice bath - Not Blaise Pascal

[Michael Hardner]

46 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1)I find that worthy of both comment and disgust, but it's actually because I don't like dirty foreigners?

2)You probably feel the same way I do about the incident, but the dirty foreigner thing means you would prefer no one mention it.  Not even the newspapers, I suppose. 

1) I don't know if you like them or not.  And - you said it - there is only disgust to be expressed, nothing to be made of it beyond that.

2) I don't care if you mention it, but as I have already said many times I am looking for something to be discussed productively.  These kind of discussions you want to have go nowhere. 

[Guest]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1) I don't know if you like them or not.  And - you said it - there is only disgust to be expressed, nothing to be made of it beyond that.

2) I don't care if you mention it, but as I have already said many times I am looking for something to be discussed productively.  These kind of discussions you want to have go nowhere. 

How do you discuss such things productively?  By invoking the dirty foreigner trope. 

Why do you feel the need to over complicate something that is really quite simple?  What, exactly, do you think there is to discuss?  Their feelings?  Whether or not they were justified?  The implications in greater Islamic society of the dichotomy between the justified destruction of a blasphemer, and the drastic reversal of gender roles displayed?

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1) How do you discuss such things productively?  By invoking the dirty foreigner trope. 

2) Why do you feel the need to over complicate something that is really quite simple?  What, exactly, do you think there is to discuss?  Their feelings?  Whether or not they were justified?  The implications in greater Islamic society of the dichotomy between the justified destruction of a blasphemer, and the drastic reversal of gender roles displayed?

1) I'm playing your words back to you so you can see how difficult it is to do anything with them.  

2) It is simple.  There isn't anything to discuss, you're right.  Which makes me wonder what the point of posting is.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) I'm playing your words back to you so you can see how difficult it is to do anything with them.  

2) It is simple.  There isn't anything to discuss, you're right.  Which makes me wonder what the point of posting is.

There isn't anything for you to discuss.  I'm more than happy to discuss the barbaric and disgusting aspects of a religion that actually still encourages people to kill each other for blasphemy, even in the twenty first century.  Many are not. Hence the "dirty foreigner", "all Muslims" etc. attempts at misdirection.

Edit> I'm also more than happy to discuss the misdirection, as it happens. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by bcsapper

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I'm more than happy to discuss the barbaric and disgusting aspects of a religion that actually still encourages people to kill each other for blasphemy, even in the twenty first century.   .

Your own question back to you:

What, exactly, do you think there is to discuss ?

 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your own question back to you:

What, exactly, do you think there is to discuss ?

 

Do you not think that the idea that people deserve to die for blaspheming is worthy of discussion?  Is there a reason you would characterize surprise and disgust at the notion as simply stemming from a dislike of dirty foreigners?

Edited April 22, 2017 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No idea.  Do you think they mean all of us when they do say things about Western culture, or do they just talk about the barbaric bits?

I would hate to think they were tarring me, after all.

You're probably better at doing that to yourself all on your own.  The following focuses on American culture but that culture is also about as western as it gets right?

Quote

 

“Negroes know far more about white Americans than that; it can almost be said, in fact, that they know about white Americans what parents—or, anyway, mothers—know about their children, and that they very often regard white Americans that way. And perhaps this attitude, held in spite of what they know and have endured, helps to explain why Negroes, on the whole, and until lately, have allowed themselves to feel so little hatred. The tendency has really been, insofar as this was possible, to dismiss white people as the slightly mad victims of their own brainwashing.”

James Baldwin and the Meaning of Whiteness

 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by eyeball

[hot enough]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

With logic and honesty, without regard to who gets offended by it. 

That's not within your ken, Argus, not even close to your ken.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You're probably better at doing that to yourself all on your own.  The following focuses on American culture but that culture is also about as western as it gets right?

 

So pointing out the bad bits of other cultures is okay then. I was worried I might be doing something wrong. 

[eyeball]

What's wrong is not acknowledging it when it's appropriate to have them pointed out.  We do after all expect others to get it when we point out their failings so...

[Guest]

Just now, eyeball said:

What's wrong is not acknowledging it when it's appropriate to have them pointed out.  We do after all expect others to get it when we point out their failings so...

It's always appropriate to point them out if they are that bad. If they were just chilling the red or something, I wouldn't worry about it. 

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

It's always appropriate to point them out if they are that bad. If they were just chilling the red or something, I wouldn't worry about it. 

They'd probably feel the same way if chilling was all we were doing but we're not so I guess they'll just keep worrying until we do. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

They'd probably feel the same way if chilling was all we were doing but we're not so I guess they'll just keep worrying until we do. 

I doubt those ladies gave my actions a second's thought before they finally managed to exact vengeance on that poor bastard for his ancient blasphemy.