This week in Islam

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Right To Left said:

1. The greatest terrorist threat in America today is white christian men. They may be inspired by racial supremacist theory, but if we're going to use religious affiliation as the yardstick, there's something wrong with Christianity. 

2. Or, what if religious teaching of any kinds are not the inspiration for killing or going to war, but instead are the excuses applied afterwards.

1. No - religious terrorism seems to be a general threat at roughly the same risk level.  No religion is exempt but they have different footprints.

2. You're getting close.  Maybe religion is a moral code that is abused by people who want to achieve their own goals.

[DogOnPorch]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

So if people want to complain about how they hate Muslims, fine.  Lots of people complain about white people too - so be that way, and live in that world.  But if you want to start legislating religion, you're making my country anti-western so I will be against you.

 

Islam isn't a skin colour. Anybody...even 'white people'...can join the cult.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam differs from Christianity in many ways...but in my mind...most significantly for not having anything like 'Thou shalt not kill' as a part of its mandate. Killing under Islam isn't a sin nor a crime under certain conditions...for eliminating strife...fitnah...or as a matter of honor...that is: revenge and such.

It's in the Quran.

[jacee]

56 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Islam differs from Christianity in many ways...but in my mind...most significantly for not having anything like 'Thou shalt not kill' as a part of its mandate. Killing under Islam isn't a sin nor a crime under certain conditions...for eliminating strife...fitnah...or as a matter of honor...that is: revenge and such.

It's in the Quran.

Pretty sure it's in the old testament too.

What was your point?

[Right To Left]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No - religious terrorism seems to be a general threat at roughly the same risk level.  No religion is exempt but they have different footprints.

2. You're getting close.  Maybe religion is a moral code that is abused by people who want to achieve their own goals.

Now that sounds like as cryptic a message as I'm likely to see today! 

If we define terrorism as the desperate use of force or violence against perceived enemies that are perceived as existential threats, then it seems obvious that a lot of other conditions have to be set in place before we start seeing the first terrorist attacks. Yet, no thought or discussion is being made here about why any religious affiliation would trigger some people to commit terrorist attacks ...even going on suicide attacks. 

The whole purpose of this thread seems to have been to try to leave an impression that terrorism is inextricably linked with Muslims, and suppressing Muslims in the Middle East and preventing them from immigrating to the west will solve the problem. The rebuttals have to go further than "Most Muslim immigrants are nice people!"

[DogOnPorch]

55 minutes ago, jacee said:

Pretty sure it's in the old testament too.

What was your point?

 

No it isn't. The Ten Commandments clearly say Thou Shalt Not Kill....period. No qualifiers. 

[DogOnPorch]

12 hours ago, Right To Left said:

The greatest terrorist threat in America today is white christian men. They may be inspired by racial supremacist theory, but if we're going to use religious affiliation as the yardstick, there's something wrong with Christianity. 

 

Racism...sexism...and probably a few other isms. Not to mention false.

Edited November 26, 2019 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

29 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

 

The whole purpose of this thread seems to have been to try to leave an impression that terrorism is inextricably linked with Muslims, and suppressing Muslims in the Middle East and preventing them from immigrating to the west will solve the problem. The rebuttals have to go further than "Most Muslim immigrants are nice people!"

 

Islam speaks for itself via the Quran & Hadiths. It's not the West's friend and makes no illusion about it.

[Michael Hardner]

39 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

1. If we define terrorism as the desperate use of force or violence against perceived enemies that are perceived as existential threats, then it seems obvious that a lot of other conditions have to be set in place before we start seeing the first terrorist attacks.

2. Yet, no thought or discussion is being made here about why any religious affiliation would trigger some people to commit terrorist attacks ...even going on suicide attacks. 

3. The whole purpose of this thread seems to have been to try to leave an impression that terrorism is inextricably linked with Muslims, and suppressing Muslims in the Middle East and preventing them from immigrating to the west will solve the problem.

4. The rebuttals have to go further than "Most Muslim immigrants are nice people!"

1. Ok, well then let's not use that definition.  
2. Buried in your observation is an implicit assumption that religious affiliation IS a trigger.  That's a fallacy on your part. ( I assume by 'any' affiliation you mean 'a particular' affiliation)
3. Yes.  The thread is all about blaming Muslims, raising fears about them, dehumanizing them.  There are a few actual well-intentioned bigots who truly don't understand where their base impulses came from, and some propagandists who know what they are doing.
4. Maybe they do.  But if you are trying to actually respond to the points that would sway the naive among us... that could be enough.
 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok, well then let's not use that definition.  
2. Buried in your observation is an implicit assumption that religious affiliation IS a trigger.  That's a fallacy on your part.
3. Yes.  The thread is all about blaming Muslims, raising fears about them, dehumanizing them.  There are a few actual well-intentioned bigots who truly don't understand where their base impulses came from, and some propagandists who know what they are doing.
4. Maybe they do.  But if you are trying to actually respond to the points that would sway the naive among us... that could be enough.
 

 

Islam enjoys getting its ass kissed. It tickles...and an infidel is doing it. Perfect.

[Goddess]

50 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Buried in your observation is an implicit assumption that religious affiliation IS a trigger.  That's a fallacy on your part.

You've put forth this opinion as a fact many times now - that terrorism never has a religious trigger.

Why do you insist on it?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You've put forth this opinion as a fact many times now - that terrorism never has a religious trigger.

Why do you insist on it?

He might be a well intentioned bigot

[Goddess]

15 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

He might be a well intentioned bigot

Well, if he genuinely believes that religion doesn't lead otherwise good people into doing bad things, then I see why he objects so strongly to any criticism of Islam.  But I dont' see why he DOESN'T"T object to criticism of other religions on the same basis - like Christianity.

I dont' know how you can believe that a religion that teaches and enforces misogyny, teaches and enforces hatred of other cultures and certain ones in particular, has explicit instructions to kill, etc - will have absolutely  NO EFFECT on people.  Yet, he also firmly believes that criticizing  Islam WILL  affect others and incite to violence.  He just does not believe that Muslims can be incited to violence by what they are taught or listen to or hear.  For some odd reason.

[Argus]

23 hours ago, dialamah said:

You would know this if you ever stopped to ask yourself why there are gay people and gay advocates actually LIVING in Muslim countries,

Hiding in Muslim countries, you mean. There are few Muslim countries where they can exist without hiding what they are.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Pew polls of American Muslims show a lot of moderation and patriotism.  I

The Pew polls don't ask the hard questions like those in the British poll.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

You've put forth this opinion as a fact many times now - that terrorism never has a religious trigger.

Why do you insist on it?

Because most Muslims are 'brown' and left wing progressives find it impossible to criticize or condemn brown people. They will condemn individual members once proven to be violent and hateful, but always insist that you cannot take that as any sign of anything. Tens of thousands of Islamic terrorist attacks are not an indication to such people that Islam is any more violent or dangerous than any other religion. And the fact all 57 Muslim states criminalize homosexuality and are strongly prejudiced against women and non-Muslims in their laws and regulations means nothing to progressives. They certainly won't take THAT as an indication of what Muslim people want.

On the other hand, if one or two members of a conservative group says something racist then all members of that group are racist. Thus their scorn and contempt for the yellow vests.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

15 hours ago, Right To Left said:

England, like the rest of so called liberal, enlightened Europe, just wants immigrants to try to balance out bad demographics of an aging population. They need more worker bees to take care of aging boomers and do other necessary jobs. But, England, like France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and others, seem to have uncanny ways of red-lining the immigrants away from white native neighborhoods.

Almost all these people came to Europe as migrants and refugees, not legal immigrants. And they've stayed because of the wishy-washy, hand-wringing leftist governments in Europe which don't have the balls to deport them. They also tend to move into neighbourhoods which have large numbers of 'their' people living there already.

15 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Yet, the Murdoch-inspired fascists want to gin up fear and loathing of Muslims in England because of integration problems they've created themselves by their policies of keeping immigrants at arms length. Are relations with Muslim immigrants in England really worse than with Jamaicans and other Caribbean immigrants?  

All these policies came from the Left, and were fanatically supported by them. They still are in Canada. The idea that you should ask immigrants or refugees to adopt British/Canadian values is seen as racist by the Left, and as 'cultural genocide'.

15 hours ago, Right To Left said:

How about if, here in Canada at least, we keep doing most of what we are already doing regarding immigration and naturalization issues! It's not perfect, but we haven't created the isolated ethnic ghettos found over there.

We have a smaller percentage of Muslims here. Watch what happens as it rises. There are no nations with substantial Muslim populations where there is not Muslim violence and agitation for more Muslim-friendly laws like Sharia.

[Argus]

15 hours ago, Right To Left said:

The greatest terrorist threat in America today is white christian men.

I would say that this is wildly exaggerated. And that the people who have committed politically inspired violence tend to be from poor, rural areas where they feel disenfranchised and scorned by the 'urbanites'. We've seen Muslim doctors and engineers engaging in suicide attacks in the West. How many white doctors and engineers engage in terrorism?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Argus

[jacee]

32 minutes ago, Argus said:

I would say that this is wildly exaggerated. And that the people who have committed politically inspired violence tend to be from poor, rural areas where they feel disenfranchised and scorned by the 'urbanites'. 

That's true, though there are lots of city boys who are white supremacists too. 

And it is a serious problem, in the US and here, recognized as a terrorist threat by law enforcement on both sides of the border.

The Base and Atomwaffen are two of the most violent threats, as I'm sure you know. 

[Goddess]

55 minutes ago, Argus said:

Hiding in Muslim countries, you mean. There are few Muslim countries where they can exist without hiding what they are.

Or other countries when they are in the midst of their community.  In Norway when they tried to get a support group together for gay Muslims, no one came forward.  Not one gay Muslim in the entire country.  It took years before a couple brave ones came out and they were able to start a group.  This is why so many Muslims insist that there are no gay Muslims in Islam.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Goddess

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's true, though there are lots of city boys who are white supremacists too. 

And it is a serious problem, in the US and here, recognized as a terrorist threat by law enforcement on both sides of the border.

The Base and Atomwaffen are two of the most violent threats, as I'm sure you know. 

Never heard of them. Only extremists keep note of other extremists.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Hiding in Muslim countries, you mean. There are few Muslim countries where they can exist without hiding what they are.

Yes, they face persecution in their countries from authorities.  Nonetheless, friends and family are often aware that they are gay, and do not turn them in or kill them.  If every Muslim believed it was their duty to kill gays, there would be no stories about an "underground" gay society, or stories about heterosexual advocates for gay rights, even when those advocates also suffer for their advocacy.  These stories are just as valid as the stories where families or friends turn on that gay person because it is about the differences in belief among Muslims.  

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Or other countries when they are in the midst of their community.  In Norway when they tried to get a support group together for gay Muslims, no one came forward.  Not one gay Muslim in the entire country.  It took years before a couple brave ones came out and they were able to start a group.  

In the West, there are gay Mosques, including one in Toronto.  Clearly, these people want and will pursue the opportunity to worship, despite the disapproval of others in their community.  This is true for many other people who are working towards modernizing Islam, whether its feminists working towards eliminating FGM, or peace loving Muslims who want to counter extremist groups like ISIS.

50 years ago, in Canada, gays "hid" to avoid jail or being beaten to death by straight "Christian" men; women were (and sometimes still are) told to remain with abusive men by their Christian leaders and community. Somehow, the progressive rights we now have were gained even though the vast majority of people, at that time, called themselves Christian, believed homosexuality was wrong, women were to be submissive to their husbands and that marriage was for life, even if it was your husband who killed you.  

Your painting of Muslims as deliberate and eager oppressors of women/gays/minorities and yelling at people who disagree with your generalizations does a disservice to every single Muslim who is progressive in their heart, but who submits to government and community out of fear.  Your continuing refusal to see past the fear-mongering media you choose insults every Muslim who comes here looking for a life.  Your use of every negative media story you can find to define Muslims reveals your agenda.

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

This is why so many Muslims insist that there are no gay Muslims in Islam.

My brother-in-law knows there are gay Muslims, but doesn't want to talk about it.  His brother denies that there are any gay Muslims.  Kinda like the way some people in Canada feel about transsexuals - use whatever bathroom you want, just don't tell me about it while others claim transsexuals are mentally ill, confused or perverts - and must be controlled so they don't poison our society.

Point being - there are diverse opinions and beliefs among Muslims, from extremely conservative to extremely progressive, with most somewhere in the middle.  

[Right To Left]

11 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Racism...sexism...and probably a few other isms. Not to mention false.

Look up "White Genocide" and you'll find your motive for most white nationalist terrorist attacks.

Most Of America’s Terrorists Are White, And Not Muslim

 

Looking at both plots and attacks carried out, the group tracked 201 terrorist incidents on U.S. soil from January 2008 to the end of 2016. The database shows 115 cases by right-wing extremists ― from white supremacists to militias to “sovereign citizens” ― compared to 63 cases by Islamist extremists. Incidents from left-wing extremists, which include ecoterrorists and animal rights militants, were comparatively rare, with 19 incidents. 

When it comes to right-wing extremism, attackers are also 'mostly men' and 'almost purely white.'Reporter David Neiwert

While the database makes a point of distinguishing between different groups within right-wing extremism, lead reporter David Neiwert told HuffPost that “those are all gradations of white supremacy, variations on the same thing.” When it comes to right-wing extremism, attackers are also “mostly men” and “almost purely white,” Neiwert said.  

Attacks by right-wing extremists were also more often deadly, with nearly a third of right-wing extremist incidents resulting in deaths compared with 13 percent of Islamist extremist cases resulting in deaths. However, the sheer number of people killed by Islamist extremists ― a total of 90 people killed ― was higher than the death toll at the hands of right-wing extremists ― 79 people killed.

[Right To Left]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yes, they face persecution in their countries from authorities.  Nonetheless, friends and family are often aware that they are gay, and do not turn them in or kill them.  If every Muslim believed it was their duty to kill gays, there would be no stories about an "underground" gay society, or stories about heterosexual advocates for gay rights, even when those advocates also suffer for their advocacy.  These stories are just as valid as the stories where families or friends turn on that gay person because it is about the differences in belief among Muslims.  

In the West, there are gay Mosques, including one in Toronto.  Clearly, these people want and will pursue the opportunity to worship, despite the disapproval of others in their community.  This is true for many other people who are working towards modernizing Islam, whether its feminists working towards eliminating FGM, or peace loving Muslims who want to counter extremist groups like ISIS.

50 years ago, in Canada, gays "hid" to avoid jail or being beaten to death by straight "Christian" men; women were (and sometimes still are) told to remain with abusive men by their Christian leaders and community. Somehow, the progressive rights we now have were gained even though the vast majority of people, at that time, called themselves Christian, believed homosexuality was wrong, women were to be submissive to their husbands and that marriage was for life, even if it was your husband who killed you.  

Your painting of Muslims as deliberate and eager oppressors of women/gays/minorities and yelling at people who disagree with your generalizations does a disservice to every single Muslim who is progressive in their heart, but who submits to government and community out of fear.  Your continuing refusal to see past the fear-mongering media you choose insults every Muslim who comes here looking for a life.  Your use of every negative media story you can find to define Muslims reveals your agenda.

My brother-in-law knows there are gay Muslims, but doesn't want to talk about it.  His brother denies that there are any gay Muslims.  Kinda like the way some people in Canada feel about transsexuals - use whatever bathroom you want, just don't tell me about it while others claim transsexuals are mentally ill, confused or perverts - and must be controlled so they don't poison our society.

Point being - there are diverse opinions and beliefs among Muslims, from extremely conservative to extremely progressive, with most somewhere in the middle.  

Most of what I am told by Muslims over here, who came from places turned into war zones --- like Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria, is that life was better before the wars started.......no surprise! When the US went into Iraq, they destroyed all of their civic institutions except for the mosques. So should it be any surprise that post-Saddam Iraq is a fight between competing Sunni and Shia theocracies in most of the country! 

When it comes to gays and adopting western culture (clothes, music etc. which is also extremely dangerous there now) before the Invasion, gays in cities like Baghdad could go about their lives as long as they didn't appear too gay! And get beaten up by thugs. But they didn't have to deal with Islamic courts seeking them out, looking for their clubs and executing them after show trials as they have been doing ever since US "liberation" in both the Shia and Sunni-controlled zones. 

Over here, depending on where they are from and how conservative their families are, most gay Muslims I've ever talked to say they don't fear retribution from their families, but don't feel fully accepted...usually the men are the problem! Mothers and sisters often take their sides and argue against male family members........which sounds a lot like it was over here for gays years ago.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Right To Left

[Right To Left]

10 hours ago, Argus said:

Almost all these people came to Europe as migrants and refugees, not legal immigrants. And they've stayed because of the wishy-washy, hand-wringing leftist governments in Europe which don't have the balls to deport them.

"Legal"/"Illegal" immigrants is just a canard...a  bunch of arbitrary excuses created to regulate entry into a country.

And when we're talking Europe, most of them came from the colonies......remember that?  England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Holland, all thought entitled to go sailing out across the oceans in their wooden gunboats a few centuries ago to exploit any resources they could find, and enslave locals to produce cash crops on their plantations. Since the Euros didn't feel that they should have to stay 'where they belonged', eventually some of the darker people of the south decided they should have the opportunity to see what life would be like in the land of their colonizers.

The rest of your diatribe doesn't acknowledge the fact that most of Europe has birth rates below replacement level, and aging populations. They need immigrants from somewhere to try to fix bad demographics.

Quote

They also tend to move into neighbourhoods which have large numbers of 'their' people living there already.

So, why isn't that happening over here? My town has a lot of first and second generation immigrants. Why aren't they all living in their own self-contained clusters like they do in England, France or Sweden? Just maybe they cluster together there because western Europe has a facade of liberalism and tolerance that it doesn't actually live up to! They can pretend to be multicultural all they want, but as long as they also proclaim national identities of shared lineage and history going back centuries...well that's something that no immigrant can have regardless of how much they try to fit in!

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All these policies came from the Left, and were fanatically supported by them. They still are in Canada. The idea that you should ask immigrants or refugees to adopt British/Canadian values is seen as racist by the Left, and as 'cultural genocide'.

My father's ancestry is mostly Scotch/Irish, but the last thing I want to force onto others is the old British Canada cultural values! First off,  it was never accepted by Quebeckers, nor the Indigenous nations here who were promised that their land and water rights would be respected by the four British colonies who later turned into Canada.....and then shredded those treaty rights once they had the numbers to impose their will and claim the whole goddammed country for themselves! Tell that to Don Cherry!

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We have a smaller percentage of Muslims here. Watch what happens as it rises. There are no nations with substantial Muslim populations where there is not Muslim violence and agitation for more Muslim-friendly laws like Sharia.

Well, since Hamilton is less than an hour's drive from Toronto (discounting traffic congestion), we seem to have a substantial number of Muslims among our large and growing immigrant population. No sign of sharia law being imposed on us yet!

My own experience tells me that those who fear Muslims and non-white immigrants in general the most,  live in white suburbs or rural areas of the Country, where they never see, let alone talk to anyone who comes from these places.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Right To Left