Will Stephen Harper resign over the Senate scandal?

[August1991]

With Harper now turning on Nigel Wright, and stating that Wright was fired (dismissed) rather than resigning, what is the chance that Wright makes a statement to defend his reputation? And what of Harper's claim that it is normal practice for the CPC to pick up legal fees for members of caucus?

To my ear, Harper's increasingly shrill tone is evidence that he fears losing his base and more particularly his caucus:

“Mr. Duffy took $90,000 of expense money he did not actually incur. He was told to pay it back. He committed to paying it back. He said publicly he had paid it back,” Mr. Harper told the Commons.

“That turned out … to be a story told by Mr. Duffy and Mr. Wright,” the Prime Minister said. “As a consequence, Mr. Wright no longer works on the public payroll. Mr. Duffy should not be on the public payroll either.”

Harper's no quitter but then again, neither was Richard Nixon. Nixon ultimately chose to resign when Haig showed him the numbers of votes he could muster in the Senate.

[On Guard for Thee]

I kinda doubt Harper will resign, I think his "control freak" attitude will subvert that option. He'll try to regain some sort of "even keel" but my guess is that even if they hold the vote in the senate (very riskt right now) that he will lose and therefore the caucus will be shown to be split. Then going to Calgary with all this messy laundry still flapping in the wind will give delegates pause I suspect. And holy smoke, who knows what Duffy may have up his sleeve for tomorrow?

[Shady]

He won't resign and he shouldn't. There's nothing for him to resign over. In 3 months or less, this won't even be an issue, other than to the hardcore Harper haters. It's much ado about nothing.

[August1991]

... if they hold the vote in the senate (very riskt right now) that he will lose and therefore the caucus will be shown to be split.

The senate caucus is largely irrelevant to Harper. It is the Commons caucus that matters to a sitting PM. They have to face voters in the next election.

Right now, I suspect that many sitting Tory MPs are hearing loud and clear that Stephen Harper may be part of the problem.

[August1991]

He won't resign and he shouldn't. There's nothing for him to resign over. In 3 months or less, this won't even be an issue, other than to the hardcore Harper haters. It's much ado about nothing.

3 months? This scandal has been alive for about 6 months already. What makes you think it will die in 3 months?

I'm waiting for Harper to say, just as Nixon did: "One year of this Senate scandal is enough!"

But there's more Shady. Harper's shrill tone is evidence to me that Harper knows and understands that his leadership is being gravely tested. This is like Nixon grabbing Ziegler and pushing him back to the reporters or claiming "I am not a crook!"

[eyeball]

Judging by media reports there is little that has captured as much attention in many years. It clearly matters to a lot of Canadians.

It certainly looks like an electoral game changer but I doubt it will cause much change in the manner in which we misgovern ourselves. We'll be back and we'll deserve what we get.

[On Guard for Thee]

Usually the senate vote would be largely irrelevant to a sitting PM, but in this case I think it has much more relevance in that he's been the guy pounding his fist on the table to oust the 3 bad guys, albeit they are his 3 handpicked bad guys.

I do totally agree with your comment about Tory MP's, they see Harper slowly slipping down into the muck where nobody knows who to trust, and that is PM poison for sure.

[On Guard for Thee]

He won't resign and he shouldn't. There's nothing for him to resign over. In 3 months or less, this won't even be an issue, other than to the hardcore Harper haters. It's much ado about nothing.

I'm sure he won't resign. But I wonder how many scandals he needs to have on his plate before his supporters sit up and take notice. How about "contempt of parliament"? First and only PM and he could be headed there again depending on how the speaker rules on a point of order that was brought the first day of the current session.

[August1991]

Judging by media reports there is little that has captured as much attention in many years. It clearly matters to a lot of Canadians.

It certainly looks like an electoral game changer but I doubt it will cause much change in the manner in which we misgovern ourselves. We'll be back and we'll deserve what we get.

"Media reports" is the key term in your post. What do ordinary people think? According to Shady, they don't care.

I disagree with Shady and I suspect that the numbers explain partly the reason. Ordinary Tory voters can understand numbers like $90,000 or $13,500.

I do totally agree with your comment about Tory MP's, they see Harper slowly slipping down into the muck where nobody knows who to trust, and that is PM poison for sure.

Richard Nixon resigned because he lost the support of Republicans in the US Senate. Margaret Thatcher resigned because she lost the support of Conservative MPs.

If Harper were to resign, it would be because he loses the support of his caucus - Tory MPs. About half of the CPC caucus is from Manitoba or further west. Other than what these MPs think themselves, they must be hearing from ordinary party supporters in their ridings.

Edited October 30, 2013 by August1991

[eyeball]

Ordinary Tory voters are more like Shady than anyone else.

I think most ordinary people think it's disgusting.

[August1991]

Ordinary Tory voters are more like Shady than anyone else.

I think most ordinary people think it's disgusting.

The people who HateHarper™ would have burned him on a cross ages ago. That's not the question now.

The question is what ordinary Tory voters, particularly those in the West, think of this scandal. (More particularly, it is what Tory MPs in general think of this scandal.) And for such questions, I doubt people who HateHarper™ have much insight to offer.

My reading is that this scandal is grave. To many Tory voters, Harper has become another Liberal politician. In fact, he's worse. With a Liberal, you know what you're getting.

I suspect Harper's shrillness is due to him trying to play a piano when all the notes are in the wrong places. He can't play the base anymore. People aren't listening.

At this point, the only Tory voters supporting Harper are those who live in cities or in the East, among Leftists, Liberals and the NDP. They support Harper simply because, for them, the alternative is far worse.

----

As I always say, Canada's federal politics are regional, not ideological.

Edited October 30, 2013 by August1991

[On Guard for Thee]

And then there's just plain logical. Why would Mike Duffy concoct a story about mortgaging his house with the RBC to come up with the 90k to pay his expenses? I bought a house a while back and I don't recall the owner questioning me as to how I came up with the downpayment. I can certainly see why the PMO might want to proffer a little subterfuge.

[Jimmy Wilson]

"Media reports" is the key term in your post. What do ordinary people think? According to Shady, they don't care.

I disagree with Shady and I suspect that the numbers explain partly the reason. Ordinary Tory voters can understand numbers like $90,000 or $13,500.

If Harper were to resign, it would be because he loses the support of his caucus - Tory MPs. About half of the CPC caucus is from Manitoba or further west. Other than what these MPs think themselves, they must be hearing from ordinary party supporters in their ridings.

It's interesting...I don't think the amount of money matters...

By way of comparison,the McGuinty mess in Ontario is far worse.And even Mr. Clement's Gazebofest in Muskoka was worse...

The amount of money is not the issue at all..The issues at hand are ethics,scruples,and,authenticity.Remember,Mr. Harper and his party came into power based on the fact that much of the Canadian voting populous bought the idea that he (and his party) were going to run a clean and ethical government that was far different from the Liberal regime.Never mind the fact that the Conservative ideology plays well in the West and rural Ontario.The problem with this Senate scandal,along with the ethical lapses that have befallen The Harper Government,is that it chips away at the very things people turned to the Conservative party for...

It appears that The Harper Government knows very little about ethics,despite pleas to the contrary...

It appears that Mr. Harper,or at least the minions in his office (people he should know about) are increasingly unscrupulous...

And the biggest thing is that whatever air of authenticity Mr. Harper had about him it is rapidly evaporating!And it is the authenticity issue that will bring him down amongst the voters.People expect politicians to be unscrupulous and unethical,but if they don't have the ability to seem authentic with the populous,they're deader then door nails...

[August1991]

It's interesting...I don't think the amount of money matters...

By way of comparison,the McGuinty mess in Ontario is far worse.And even Mr. Clement's Gazebofest in Muskoka was worse...

I disagree. A Conservative voter understands a number like $90,000. No one understands a number like $1.5 billion except a leftist because it means someone else's money. [similarly, what did Stalin the Progressive Leftist famously say? “If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics.”]

The issues at hand are ethics,scruples,and,authenticity.Remember,Mr. Harper and his party came into power based on the fact that much of the Canadian voting populous bought the idea that he (and his party) were going to run a clean and ethical government....

"... much of the Canadian voting populous... "? Many Canadians did not vote for Harper.

It happens that I joined the Conservative Party so that I could vote to make Harper the party leader. I recognize however that while he's now PM, his (and my) party did not receive a majority of votes.

Many posters on this forum hate Stephen Harper - including apparently you Jimmy Wilson. But Jimmy, you have a point. Stephen Harper apparently may have played too dirty to clean up government.

Edited October 30, 2013 by August1991

[Jimmy Wilson]

I disagree. A Conservative voter understands a number like $90,000. No one understands a number like $1.5 billion except a leftist because it means someone else's money.

"... much of the Canadian voting populous... "? It happens that I joined the Conservative Party so that I could vote to make Harper the party leader. I recognize however that while he's now PM, his (and my) party did not receive a majority of votes.

Many posters on this forum hate Stephen Harper - including apparently you Jimmy Wilson. But Jimmy, you have a point. Stephen Harper apparently may have played too dirty to clean up government.

Then,just as I have thought,conservatives think it's about the money...'Cause it's always about the money with these types ethics,scruples,and authenticity be damned!

It also lends a little insight to Mr. Duffy's commentary from last week in that he was told by Mr. Harper that he feels that the rules are inexplicable to the (conservative) base...The obvious implication being that Mr. Harper feels most of his base is a bunch of mouth breathing rubes who couldn't possibly grasp the complexity of the issues...

As an aside,it certainly explains their bumper sticker sloganeering that gets "the base" all riled up...But I digress...

What I meant by the Canadian voting populous was the voting populous in this country,as a whole...Not the ideoligical parties you seem to be intimating I'm doing...The point being that I suspect there are more than a few conservatives out there that aren't too happey with what's going on here...

As far as your shot at me "hating Stephen Harper"...I don't...

I'll tell you what I do dislike,though...Excessive neoliberalism,creeping Corporatism,The Canadian Senate,and,excessive powers in the PMO...

I'll leave the rest for you to figure out...

Edited October 30, 2013 by Jimmy Wilson

[waldo]

With Harper now turning on Nigel Wright

prevailing sentiment suggests that this is a PMO/Harper set-up against Wright... to vilify Wright... to attempt to marginalize and ostracize Wright... because it's known he won't be sitting back; that, in fact, Wright eventually intends to forcefully come forward to set facts in order... to "protect his so-called reputation". Such an abrupt shift from the earlier period when Harper personally spoke highly of Wright's work and his integrity in offering a "resignation"... where, in the throes of the previous Wright "resignation", numerous Harper Conservative cabinet ministers offered glowing Wright testimonies. Apparently, Wright is simply waiting on the Senate proceedings to complete before he speaks.

[bleeding heart]

He won't resign and he shouldn't. There's nothing for him to resign over. In 3 months or less, this won't even be an issue, other than to the hardcore Harper haters. It's much ado about nothing.

You mean when the PM of your own country lies, it is much ado about nothing.

If the President of the United States lies...now, that's an outrage!

[Topaz]

Why is Wright keeping quiet, especially now when Harper is really coming down on him and if Wright is so dishonest, how can Bay St. trust Wright? On another forum I was on, someone stated, how do Canadians , especially Tory supporters, know for sure that the $90,000 didn't come from the Conservative party through Wright's own personal accounts since they took out 13,000 to pay Duffy's lawyer. Which kinda makes sense and maybe only the RCMP could check, if they think of it.

[jacee]

He won't resign and he shouldn't. There's nothing for him to resign over. In 3 months or less, this won't even be an issue, other than to the hardcore Harper haters. It's much ado about nothing.

Much ado about nothing ... IF we accept it as normal that PMO political staffers will lie to Canadians, conduct political payoffs, and continue lying to cover up the mess.

andrew-coyne-in-the-duffy-affair-theres-just-no-honour-among-liars-any-more

This whole affair is an indictment, not only of a government, but of a system of government. If the reflexive reaction of officials around the prime minister was to lie and cover up, and to go on lying and covering up, possibly it was because they figured they could get away with it because our systems of accountability have grown so weak that it is unlikely those in power will ever be made to answer for their actions.

And if we accept this distortion of our democracy as 'normal' for the CPC, then it's also acceptable for Liberals, any other party and anyone in a position of power in government.

I suspect, Shady, that you wouldn't consider it "much ado about nothing" if it was a different party.

Edited October 30, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

prevailing sentiment suggests that this is a PMO/Harper set-up against Wright... to vilify Wright... to attempt to marginalize and ostracize Wright... because it's known he won't be sitting back; that, in fact, Wright eventually intends to forcefully come forward to set facts in order... to "protect his so-called reputation". Such an abrupt shift from the earlier period when Harper personally spoke highly of Wright's work and his integrity in offering a "resignation"... where, in the throes of the previous Wright "resignation", numerous Harper Conservative cabinet ministers offered glowing Wright testimonies. Apparently, Wright is simply waiting on the Senate proceedings to complete before he speaks.

I'm not sure he's wise to talk while the RCMP investigation is in progress, maybe not while matters are before the court either.

Wright has no need to talk now.

DuffyWallinBrazeau do because they're fighting for their jobs.

Edited October 30, 2013 by jacee

[BubberMiley]

Many posters on this forum hate Stephen Harper - including apparently you Jimmy Wilson.

I don't hate Harper but I certainly hate posters who are so out of their league in debating that they must resort to accusations of hatred and derangement syndromes because they are incapable of defending their positions.

[eyeball]

...if Wright is so dishonest, how can Bay St. trust Wright?

Dishonesty is actually a desired trait in many circles of power and wealth.

[cybercoma]

Like Chretien, Harper is too much of a megalomaniac to step aside. He'll leave when the party fractures and turfs him or he gets too old to do the job anymore.

[PIK]

Talk about dreaming by the haters. lol 73% (ispo) of all canadians from all corners of the country want these 3 gone and without pay. So you lefties just keep defending the 3 stooges and just keep telling everyone how they are the victims of all this. If duffy had any integerty to him he would have so no to these so called deals. He is throwing mud hoping something will stick. And to put nixon and harper in the same sentence is a very pathetic try. In the end you have harper defending the taxpayer while the left is defending the stooges. Life is good.

[bleeding heart]

Talk about dreaming by the haters. lol 73% (ispo) of all canadians from all corners of the country want these 3 gone and without pay. So you lefties just keep defending the 3 stooges and just keep telling everyone how they are the victims of all this. If duffy had any integerty to him he would have so no to these so called deals. He is throwing mud hoping something will stick. And to put nixon and harper in the same sentence is a very pathetic try. In the end you have harper defending the taxpayer while the left is defending the stooges. Life is good.

I don't defend them at all. I think Duffy is crooked as hell.

That doesn't, however, mean the PM (and more obviously, at least for now, the PMO) is clean in all this.

And Harper has now stated outright that deception came from the PMO...an explicit change of story, as you well know.