Sporadic Out of Context Moderation

[Smallc]

What is this place now?

The moderator takes one out of context comment and use it to justify the suspension of some of the most intelligent, well written posters on here. Threads are locked because apparently the opening post wasn't good enough at promoting discussion. All the while trolling and nonsense posts fill this place to the brim, and nothing is done...absolutely nothing.

I barely visit anymore, and I suspect that this will land me with a suspension, or a banning, but I don't care. I'm sure this thread will quickly be deleted also, but again, I don't care. I used to enjoy visiting this place, because of the intelligent political discussion. The moderation was not heavy handed, and posters generally did a good job of policing themselves. As it stands right now, this place has become unworkable. Some of the best posters have been chased away, banned and or frustrated, never to return. This site is on the slow road to death.

I'm sure nothing will be done (other than some kind of punishment for me), and I'll be accused of whining (I've seen it done before by the moderator), but, I think this has to be said.

[Guest]

I agree, but I often wonder if it is report driven. There are those on here who will report anything they find even slightly disagreeable, and those who, in the interests of free discourse, won't report anything.

There was nothing wrong with the thread that was locked, or with the thread regarding Israeli decency that was deleted. Other than the subject matter, which I suspect upset some of the more rigid on the site.

[GostHacked]

I don't even hit the report button anymore unless it is spam related. Overall I agree with your stance. We do know this place is not as moderated like it was before, so once the chains are off some changed their tactics and went all out. And we seemed to have lost more people than gained recently. Some good ones some bad ones.

Some posters clearly are here just to cause trouble. That is all. Mind you that is only a handful of posters that contribute to much of that. And when I point it out, I get the finger back at me. So what do you do? Roll your eyes and close the damn window.

If you get banned for this, then they might as well shut down the whole thing as much more serious violations on the site have taken place with no repercussions. I am not perfect, I've spent time in the cooler and each time I deserved it. Others simply whine that they were held accountable to forum rules when the report button was hit. I seem to deserve the blame there as well. Which is a no win situation either way.

So either we need more moderation, more consistent moderation (something I brought up before too) or actually get a couple new mods for the board? That might actually increase traffic flow if people know there is a place where ideas can be exchanged without people being complete asses to one another.

[GostHacked]

I agree, but I often wonder if it is report driven. There are those on here who will report anything they find even slightly disagreeable, and those who, in the interests of free discourse, won't report anything.

There was nothing wrong with the thread that was locked, or with the thread regarding Israeli decency that was deleted. Other than the subject matter, which I suspect upset some of the more rigid on the site.

Differing opinions are alright, it's how that is delivered. I don't hit the report button for differing views, just the way they get presented and blatant disrespect by some. Shady's thread on the good things some members in the IDF have done was a good one. I think it could have been a great positive thread for one. However his premise on the anti-semite bit was completely trollish in nature and right in the OP. That is the reason I suspect it got taken down.

[Guest]

Differing opinions are alright, it's how that is delivered. I don't hit the report button for differing views, just the way they get presented and blatant disrespect by some. Shady's thread on the good things some members in the IDF have done was a good one. I think it could have been a great positive thread for one. However his premise on the anti-semite bit was completely trollish in nature and right in the OP. That is the reason I suspect it got taken down.

I see blatant disrespect from one or two posters, but I suspect those are not the ones being reported. Shady's anti Semite comment was valid, in my opinion, but if others differ, it was certainly not reason enough for an entire thread being taken down. It seems like people could just ignore it.

We all ignore an awful lot of irritating opinions, all the time.

[GostHacked]

We all ignore an awful lot of irritating opinions, all the time.

This is true.

[DogOnPorch]

This is true.

So stop with the childish button pushing.

[Argus]

IThere was nothing wrong with the thread that was locked, or with the thread regarding Israeli decency that was deleted. Other than the subject matter, which I suspect upset some of the more rigid on the site.

Well, "Breaking News" was a very poor title for a topic as it gave no indication what was under discussion. But that should have been amended. It is inconvenient to restart the thread, though. As for suspensions/bannings, I tend to agree that they seem arbitrary and report driven. And, of course, this means if you have certain people who don't like other people they will zealously report everything they say which might be considered offensive, thus subjecting that person to a disrproprionate amount of moderation interest. I also think there is less talking to people done now than was the case years ago. I don't get warnings any more, just suspensions, and never for what I say about individuals here, but always some backhanded, one line comment about some institution or group or individual out in the world.

[Bonam]

There was nothing wrong with the thread that was locked, or with the thread regarding Israeli decency that was deleted.

Yeah the Israel thread should not have been deleted. Perhaps the site moderators don't want threads saying positive things about Israel? There was another thread saying something good about Israel a few months ago (I think also about Israel helping Syrian refugees or something like that) and that was quickly deleted as well.

[Moonlight Graham]

First, let me say that I greatly appreciate the time/effort the admins & moderators put into maintaining this board, because it's a lot of work I'd imagine & not an easy job.

That said, I don't like the moderation on this board the last few years. It's become a lot worse, too heavy handed, too intimidating, & grossly lacking in transparency. The fact that smallc, whom i'm sure most would agree is an excellent poster on MLW, has been driven away is a shame. The fact that he is intimidated & fears being suspended/banned for simply speaking his mind and criticizing the moderation is a shame. The fact that I feel exactly the same way is a shame, & it should not be tolerated.

This place does need to be enforced, but many times it seems suspensions are out of place when warnings aren't even given & would likely suffice to stop the behaviour, especially for posters who are typically well-behaved. IMO suspensions should be reserved for repeat offenders or very serious violations. When I first came to this board in 2007 moderation worked well, I was warned when I said something out of line, and then I quickly fell in line with the rules. Since 2-3 years ago this place has gone nuts with the suspensions/bannings, turning into an intimidation tactic as much as a regulation tactic.

Some threads deserve to be locked. But almost all threads on here aren't locked, they are simply removed, & with no explanation why to MLW members. With the exception of blatant spam & advertisements, IMO all threads should be locked & not removed (though I realize removing them un-clutters the "Recent Topics" feed), & an explanation by the moderator of why the thread was locked should be given in that thread when it's locked. Charles just did that this in PIK's "Breaking News" thread & I'm pleased to see that.

I saw no problem with PIK's "Breaking News" thread, other than a vague title. No link? Who cares, people know what he's talking about. I saw no problem with Shady's Israel thread, other than I disagreed with his use of "anti-Semite". That said, there is a crusading lawyer out there suing forum operators & posters spouting neo-Nazi & anti-Semitic nonsense so maybe that had something to do with it?

Everyone needs to remember that while Greg or whomever may own this forum, & Charles etc. may moderate it, this forum essentially belongs to us MLW posters, because without us it would serve no function & cease to exist. MLW posters as a whole have the ultimate power here.

[Topaz]

I have never reported anyone, nor will I. I can deal with any comment on my own and believe in the freedom of speech.

[bush_cheney2004]

I've seen indirect evidence that the mods are stressed and/or not paying attention with two warnings for the same single "offense" and an e-mail reporting that posting privileges would be restored on August 9th, only to wait until last week. Maybe more mods and less report button pushing would help.

Say a prayer for our mods....

[GostHacked]

So stop with the childish button pushing.

This is exactly the crap that drives down the quality of this board.

[The_Squid]

It's lazy to post a vague title, a few sentences with no links when referring to a news story. I don't mind the moderators dealing with that whatsoever. It happened to me once. I didn't mind... the mod was correct that it was lazy. It was a good reminder for me to put a little more thought into my posting, particularly when introducing a topic. I think it was deleted and I received demerits.

I just wish some of the silly trolling could be curbed a bit more...

[cybercoma]

I agree that the moderation is completely inconsistent here. I was here when Charles was made a moderator and can remember when he used to post. I can appreciate Greg's reasoning for having a mod that doesn't participate in the forums, but I think we've seen lately that it causes more problems. They don't seem to understand the context of what's going on in the forum and only show up to pass judgment then leave again. There's certainly room for improvement here. For example, the trolling is completely out of control and cannot be addressed without active moderators.

Edited October 19, 2013 by cybercoma

[scribblet]

I saw no problem with Shady's Israel thread, other than I disagreed with his use of "anti-Semite". That said, there is a crusading lawyer out there suing forum operators & posters spouting neo-Nazi & anti-Semitic nonsense so maybe that had something to do with it?

I too was wondering if this crusade had anything to do with what's going on, it certainly has a chilling effect.

Edited October 19, 2013 by scribblet

[Guest American Woman]

I saw no problem with Shady's Israel thread, other than I disagreed with his use of "anti-Semite". That said, there is a crusading lawyer out there suing forum operators & posters spouting neo-Nazi & anti-Semitic nonsense so maybe that had something to do with it?

I too was wondering if this crusade had anything to do with what's going on, it certainly has a chilling effect. I wonder if that's why no one has started a thread on it here.

Do either of you have a source/link pertaining to it? I'd be really interested in reading about it. Edited October 19, 2013 by American Woman

[Moonlight Graham]

Do either of you have a source/link pertaining to it? I'd be really interested in reading about it.

Scribblet made a thread on it a week or 2 ago. The lawyer and his cases have actually got quite a bit of attention within the legal community in Canada:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23063-the-day-free-speech-died-in-canada/page-1

[Guest American Woman]

Scribblet made a thread on it a week or 2 ago. The lawyer and his cases have actually got quite a bit of attention within the legal community in Canada:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23063-the-day-free-speech-died-in-canada/page-1

Thanks for the link! - I appreciate it. It looks really interesting.

[Greg]

I barely visit anymore, and I suspect that this will land me with a suspension, or a banning, but I don't care. I'm sure this thread will quickly be deleted also, but again, I don't care.

You can climb down off the cross Smallc, no one is going to ban you for opening yet another thread whining about moderation.

Everyone here is responsible for what the things they say... period. If you were warned or disciplined, it was because you broke the clearly defined rules.

You cannot blame anyone for the mistakes you make, particularly the moderator or myself.

I should note, the VAST majority of the reports are frivolous and are simply ignored by Charles and myself - Charles and I are not stupid; we can tell when someone is trying to manipulate the reporting feature.

If you follow the rules, don't run your mouth off and ignore trolling, you have NOTHING to worry about. However, if you like to get excited and counter trolling and those you disagree with with malice and spite, your days are number in these forums, and I look forward to the day when I can send you packing.

The overall quality of the forums depend greatly on the ability of the forum members to take the high road when confronted with trolling and other undesirable behaviors.

Here is a question for all of you who are complaining: If you believe this forum is heading in the wrong direction, what have you done to reverse the trend? If you can’t answer that simple question, perhaps you should consider the impact of your actions.

[GostHacked]

This thread was created to bring that to light Greg. Take a read around and look for yourself.

No matter how much it is ignored, we still have the usual suspects who are causing the problem. Same thing brought up last time a thread like this was created. You ask what are we doing about it? We can't do anything about it. We are not moderators. If we tell them to stop trolling, we get more.

Ignoring trolls does not work.

[Greg]

This thread was created to bring that to light Greg. Take a read around and look for yourself.

No matter how much it is ignored, we still have the usual suspects who are causing the problem. Same thing brought up last time a thread like this was created. You ask what are we doing about it? We can't do anything about it. We are not moderators. If we tell them to stop trolling, we get more.

Ignoring trolls does not work.

I have looked around, I simply believe you are over-stating the problem.

There are certain members who bother other specific members, big deal. This forum is no different than the real world, there are certain people who grate other people. If you don't get along with someone, avoid them or ignore them. I can't force members to respect each other, and Charles and I won't even try to enforce respest, because that's impossible.

As to the trolling, again, I believe you are overstating the problem. Eventually those who engage in troling will be premenantly removed from the forums. That's the way things are done in these forums, slow and incremental moderation. In the mean time, ignore them and do you best to elevate the discussions through reasonable debate.

I could come down hard on everyone and do a lock-down and sweep of the forums for all members who have transgressions in their past, but there wouldn't be many of you left.

[GostHacked]

How long does one need to troll before the are permanently banned? Several years?

[Greg]

Trolling is defined in the rules of these forums. However, in practice, defining somone as a troll or something as "trolling" is a subjective task. It's a task that Charles and I take seriously, but obviously everyone has different thresholds. A single transgression isn't likley to get someone suspended or banned - we always give everyone the benefit of the doubt. As I mentioned, if we took that strong of a stance, there would be few left in these forums. However, repeated incidents occuring over a short period of time will often get our attention.

[Argus]

Everyone here is responsible for what the things they say... period. If you were warned or disciplined, it was because you broke the clearly defined rules.

The speed limit on the highway is 100. It's clearly posted. Have you ever gone over 100, Greg?

Of course, we know the police are rarely that precise. There is some leeway and everyone uses it. Try travelling at the speed limit and you'll see virtually everyone passing you by and leaving you in the dust.

In the same way, the rules are not enforced as precisely as you are suggesting, and everyone knows that too. To a certai extent, it's merely who is brought to the attention of the moderators. That winds up causing certain people to be disproprtionately targeted if, for example, someone doesn't like them and continually sends their posts to the moderator.

I don't believe I ever had an issue with your moderation. It was more active, it was more aware of and more likely to take context into account, and it was more 'moderate'. It seemed to me you were more inclined to tell someone to change a post and why, then to simply slap them with a 30 day ban. Maybe the current moderator doesn't have the time you spent, I wouldn't know. He certainly doesn't seem to have the inclination.

My record includes three suspension in the last few years, none for insults towards members (your own warnings considerably moderated my past behaviour in that regard), all for basically throwaway lines towards third parties which could have been handled, imho, without suspensions.

Other forums I've participated in or participate in currently have multiple moderators, and they participate in the dialogue, which, in part, allows them to both set an example, and causes them to be moderate in their own responses. I don't see why that couldn't be attempted here.

And by the way, of all the forum rules here which are routinely ignored and rarely, if every punished, the first rule on your list, which in my opinion is probably the most important -- treat each other with respect -- is by far the most commonly flouted. That's something very difficult to enforce without an active participant with time to privately engage in dialogue with those who do not in order to improve their behaviour.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Argus