Is everyone in hell?

[carepov]

We don't treat a party's platform like the word of an omnipotent being, we are all free to agree or disagree as we see fit. That's not the case for believers of a god though.

For example: It is common for many Christians to claim that they love homosexuals as people but cannot condone homosexual acts or gay marriage because the Bible states it is a sin. You and I could simply ignore the Biblical passage and act ethically. However, these Christians feel that equality for homosexuals is against their god's will and are forced into this position.

This is when I wonder if these people are aware that they are already ignoring other parts of the bible? If they are aware then their discrimination is a choice and the religion is used as a scapegoat. My guess is that most aren't aware though. I believe they have learned their sect specific story from preachers who do not dwell on the unsavoury Bible bits they have chosen to ignore.

However, this choice issue is a bigger moral problem for church big wigs. These people are very aware that they cherry pick from the Bible and that discrimination is their choice, not their god's.

In today`s western organized religions we are completely free to agree and disagree as we see fit. The perfect counter-example to yours are the many people who ARE homosexual and religious.

In general people are aware that the bible was written by man and therefore imperfect.

[Mighty AC]

I think your opinions about how the majority of Christians see their god, hell and the roots of their beliefs are not in touch with the majority.

[bleeding heart]

What fills the gap when childhood belief in Santa, the tooth fairy, dragons, leprechauns, boogy men, etc. are left behind?

There are certainly people that quit religion cold turkey and have a gap to fill but that situation is uncommon.

I think you're right.

When I stopped believing in God, I found it rather liberating, personally.

But it's not that I prescribe it; people should do what makes them happy.

But the idea that non-belief must equal some sort of monumental existential angst is simply untrue, at least in most cases.

[bleeding heart]

That's cause everyone knows that's what wizards, sorcerers, prophets, etc are supposed to say. Ever read any fantasy books? The magical hero ALWAYS says the gift is more of a curse and wishes he/she didn't have it, often before later in the story reconciling themselves with who they truly are.

Exactly so (I made more or less the same post, till I saw you had beaten me to it.)

That type of response is basically an adjunct to the usual self-mythologizing we see in any profession, legitimate or otherwise. We see it in journalists, too, many of whom will "lament" that they are TOO eager to hold powerful men accountable, that their zeal for Truth is SO unrestrained that it's practically a gosh-durn fault.

I ain't buying it.

[carepov]

I think your opinions about how the majority of Christians see their god, hell and the roots of their beliefs are not in touch with the majority.

Well, you are certainly entitled to disagree.

I certainly disagree with the way that you stereotype religious believers. Beliefs about god, hell, etc... are personal. The official religious doctrines themselves are complex and often discussed - and people cherry-pick from the doctrines and personalize their beliefs.

One example of how you misunderstand religious beliefs is how you give so much credit to religious preachers for forming personal beliefs.

I believe they have learned their sect specific story from preachers who do not dwell on the unsavoury Bible bits they have chosen to ignore.

I would argue that preachers have very little influence on people’s religious beliefs. Most followers attend service less than once a week, let’s say the average church-goer listens to a preachers for 15 minutes or so per week – really how much influence can a preacher have?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-630-x/2008001/c-g/10650/5201028-eng.htm

[carepov]

Happiness was cited as a collateral benefit of religion in this thread. It seems that being part of a large group with a sense of belonging improves happiness. However, a new study demonstrated a link between religion/spirituality and depression. It appears that spiritual beliefs can be tough on one's mental health. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/religion-depression_b_3928675.html

- People who held a religious or spiritual understanding of life had a higher incidence of depression than those with a secular life view.

- Regardless of country, the stronger the spiritual or religious belief at the start of the study, the higher the risk of onset of depression.

- Those with the more strongly held religious or spiritual convictions were twice as likely to experience major depression in the subsequent 12 months.

"Some may examine this study and argue its results suggest that while many might still be looking for answers far and wide, ironically, it could be those less religious and spiritual, who might already have found them."

Thank you for the link, it was an interesting study, and there were interesting comments too. Are the finding significant? I'm not so sure...

"Participants with a spiritual understanding of life had a greater risk of major depression at 6 or 12 months than participants with neither a spiritual nor a religious life view (Table 2).

Participants holding a religious understanding of life were also more at risk than secular participants, but this finding lost statistical significance after adjustment. When stratified by country, however, our finding that a spiritual life view predisposed people to major depression was significant only in the UK, where spiritual participants were nearly three times more likely to experience an episode of depression

than the secular group (OR 2.73, 95% CI 1.59–4.68) (Table 2)." (Page 2112)

I second reason that I am sceptical that "spiritual beliefs can be tough on one's mental health" is that I can see so reasonable causal explanation. Why would a belief be correlated to (let alone cause) major depression?

And finally, there are other studies that suggest that religiosity is a factor in reducing the likelihood of depression. For example:

-http://academiccommons.columbia.edu/catalog/ac:139251

-http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=173476

[Mighty AC]

I second reason that I am sceptical that "spiritual beliefs can be tough on one's mental health" is that I can see so reasonable causal explanation. Why would a belief be correlated to (let alone cause) major depression?

And finally, there are other studies that suggest that religiosity is a factor in reducing the likelihood of depression. For example:

-http://academiccommons.columbia.edu/catalog/ac:139251

-http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=173476

I'm not sure what can or cannot cause depression, or even what qualifies as depression. If thoughts and feelings can lead one to be considered to be depressed then I'm not sure why religious beliefs would be any different.

There are studies that show religion has both positive and negative effects on various aspects of health. Provided that all of the studies are reputable it suggests to me that we really don't know how religion influences our health. Or at least that we have yet to isolate the factors. The depression study seems to corroborate the results from a link you posted previously, that show that participating in groups and a sense of belonging is beneficial. Since, the religious who did not belong to a congregation fared worse than those that did.

[nwontariohunter]

Stupid question. No heaven and no hell in literal sense. If you were born and lived in many areas of the world in the wrong circumstances or wrong time I suppose it could be a hellish existence.

[Peter F]

I have been reading some books about Cathars and the Albigensian crusade.

The Cathars believed we are indeed in hell. That this world has been created by the Devil and we are stuck in hell. Basically the God of the old testement was the devil and that Jesus was sent to inform us that we are in hell and the only way out was to live up to the tenets of the new testement.

The Cathars were very successfull to - until the Cathar holy men were rooted out and destroyed. Apparenty these Perfects could go toe to toe with Catholic clergymen in theological argument. At least according to the records of the inquisition.

Of course, these Cathars had rather extreme ideas regarding holy living - absolutely no sex for to bring another life into this hell was obviously a great sin. Partake as little as possible in the world around since it is evil. Best to die and the sooner the better - but suicide is a sin.

In the day they made for a very strong and resilient influence in Southern France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

http://www.cathar.info/

Edited December 23, 2014 by Peter F

[Alter2Ego]

Humans have been around for about 250,000 years. For 248,000 years no one had heard of Jesus and God didn't make His presence "known" for most of that time either. If the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus, then is everyone else in the entire history of mankind languishing in hell?

The Squid:

Based upon written human history as well as Biblical chronology, humans have only existed 6,000 years. So I do not have a clue where you are getting 250,000 years from.

From the beginning of human existence, mankind was aware of the existence of Almighty God Jehovah. According to the Genesis creation account, Jehovah had repeated conversations with the first man Adam in the Garden of Eden.

Following the rebellion at the Tower of Babel, humans spread out over the earth and formed various pagan, religious beliefs. Even so, there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of literal hellfire torment for those who turned to false worship. For that matter, there are no scriptures in the Bible that says all good Christians will go to heaven.

Alter2Ego

________________

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

[LemonPureLeaf]

Stupid question. No heaven and no hell in literal sense. If you were born and lived in many areas of the world in the wrong circumstances or wrong time I suppose it could be a hellish existence.

no one knows if heaven and hell exist. People think they do or dont but no one knows for sure. They just think they do. Its a matter of faith in either case.

[kimmy]

I was listening to the radio today and it was pointed out that there is a "Highway To Hell", but only a "Stairway to Heaven."

"Speaks volumes about the expected traffic volume," the DJ noted.

-k

[eyeball]

I was listening to the radio today and it was pointed out that there is a "Highway To Hell", but only a "Stairway to Heaven."

My radio is weird, it said I have to raise a little of one if I wanna get to the other.

I'm reminded of Pat Robertson or Ernest Angley or someone describing heaven as being like Sunday School except it goes on forever. I imagine even Hell would start looking pretty good after 93 or 94 billion years or so of that.

Edited March 2, 2015 by eyeball

[overthere]

no one knows if heaven and hell exist. People think they do or dont but no one knows for sure. They just think they do. Its a matter of faith in either case.

Mmmmmmm no. Just about all- no make that all- the major religions imply that we live in hell here and now, and that our reward comes in an afterlife when all our earthly troubles are replaced by a much better life. In the case of Buddhism, replaced by another shot at a better life next time around.

[freekundli]

Hell's more fun anyway. I saw it on South Park.

i missed that one.

[Altai]

Humans have been around for about 250,000 years. For 248,000 years no one had heard of Jesus and God didn't make His presence "known" for most of that time either. If the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus, then is everyone else in the entire history of mankind languishing in hell?

We know only about recent history and especially the times after the invention of writing. Maybe there were many other prophets in ancient times.

[The_Squid]

We know only about recent history and especially the times after the invention of writing. Maybe there were many other prophets in ancient times.

The ancient Chinese had writing thousands of years prior. There is no record of them ever having heard of the Christian god or Jesus.

Edited August 31, 2016 by The_Squid

[Altai]

The ancient Chinese had writing thousands of years prior. There is no record of them ever having heard of the Christian god or Jesus.

Buddhism maybe a changed version of the religion which was sent to them with a prophet. They believe in God or Gods and there should be a beginning for this idea in China. Maybe it was told by a prophet first, and then evolved to Budhism, Taoism.

[Guest]

Buddhism maybe a changed version of the religion which was sent to them with a prophet. They believe in God or Gods and there should be a beginning for this idea in China. Maybe it was told by a prophet first, and then evolved to Budhism, Taoism.

Or like Native North American legends, maybe religions just evolved from people seeking to understand and explain the world around them and others trying to assert control over populations.

[The_Squid]

Buddhism maybe a changed version of the religion which was sent to them with a prophet. They believe in God or Gods and there should be a beginning for this idea in China. Maybe it was told by a prophet first, and then evolved to Budhism, Taoism.

You would need evidence for this hypothesis to be taken seriously, otherwise it is simply speculation.

[betsy]

Humans have been around for about 250,000 years. For 248,000 years no one had heard of Jesus and God didn't make His presence "known" for most of that time either. If the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus, then is everyone else in the entire history of mankind languishing in hell?

Not if you believe the Scriptures.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith.

The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation.

Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

http://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

Salvation includes justification. Justification is a legal standing before God where we are declared righteous before God regarding his holy law. This is possible because Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). When we trust in Christ by faith, his righteousness is reckoned to our account (Philippians 3:9). So, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). This is the same as those in the Old Testament. In other words, even though they didn't know about Jesus, they still trusted in God and were also justified by faith.

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Romans 4:1-5).

As you can see, verse three speaks in the past tense: “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

It was Abraham's belief in God that was reckoned as righteousness, and that was before Christ was ever born.

Likewise, notice in verse five it speaks in the present tense: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."

So, those before Jesus (past tense) and those after Jesus (present tense) are saved the same way, by faith.

The people in the Old Testament had faith and trusted in God, as Abraham did, and it was reckoned to them as righteousness (Rom. 4:3). Our faith is a little bit more precise in that we put our faith in what Christ has done on the cross, but it is also by faith.

https://carm.org/how-were-people-saved-who-died-before-jesus

Edited September 5, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

You would need evidence for this hypothesis to be taken seriously, otherwise it is simply speculation.

Yours would be a speculation too.....since you'd also need evidence, to support yours.

Edited September 5, 2016 by betsy

[Guest]

There is an endless amount of evidence for natural processes and zero for the supernatural variety.

[The_Squid]

Yours would be a speculation too.....since you'd also need evidence, to support yours.

What claim was I making?

[The_Squid]

Not if you believe the Scriptures

So you're saying before language was even invented by humans... That those primitive early people 100,000+ years ago had faith in God?

That doesn't even make sense.