Is everyone in hell?

[The_Squid]

1. Some religious fundamentalist beleifs are holding back progress in society.

2. Some humanist religious or interfaith communities are a major driving force for progress in society.

Mocking, ridiculing, and stereotyping all believers hiders the work of 2. while adding to the influence of 1.

It's not just fundamentalists that are holding back people's progress. Mainstream religious institutions are part of the problem.

Debate does not equate to mockery. There is no reason that any faiths tenants should be free from debate or questioning.

[Mighty AC]

Yes, most beleiver`s take a leap of faith and beleive in God. But remember, your original assertion about suspending critical thinking was not specifically about the existance of God:

It's that religious belief I am referring to. I'm sure most believers are skeptical enough to question an email claiming they have won a foreign lottery and need to put up a $5,000 processing fee in order to receive their 2 million (say it like Dr. Evil) Euro prize. Some believers have even questioned some of the scriptures and decided that they are just allegorical or fictional. That's great...but why does the critical thinking stop there?

They don't question their belief in a magical, undetectable, overlord, that exists outside of space time. An omnipotent being that somehow requires humans to do its bidding, and can't even manage to create any evidence its own existence. What's worse is they are taught that believing in this magic being without evidence is a positive thing to do. In fact, the magic man will reward you with an afterlife in paradise for believing in him without evidence. Oh yeah, and he'll punish you with an eternity of torture, if you do not believe in him without evidence.....but he loves you.

On paper even the lottery scam seems more plausible. I guess that's why most believers have to be indoctrinated as children.

[Accountability Now]

The other one percent are liars.

There is no credibility to any of them, pyschics and so on are all farcical and not a one has ever helped anyone nor anything.

Not one credible Police force will tell you that psychics helped solve a damn thing, not one.

Had a thread on this a while back, lots of claims, but no one could post a link to help themselves.

Say what you want Guyser but I know that a few of them are freaky when it comes to this stuff. I am a pure skeptic and I would consider myself very logical and everytime my family goes to one of the two mediums its like they are reading a book of their life story. Not vague stuff at all but VERY specific. The funny thing is that two mediums I know of are not glory whores rather its tough to even get them to see you.

[Accountability Now]

Yeah, I'm sure it couldn't be that since they are local and talk to your "friends and family", that they might know a bit about you.

Are you serious? There are a million people in our surrounding area and you think she knows us? Sorry....wrong on this one Bonam.

[dre]

Are you serious? There are a million people in our surrounding area and you think she knows us? Sorry....wrong on this one Bonam.

The problem is theres thousands of people making these kind of claims, and every single time in history one of them have been asked to prove them, or demonstrate their alledged ability in a controlled environment they have fallen flat on their face.

Theres even million dollar prizes for any psychic than can verify their claims.

[guyser]

Say what you want Guyser but I know that a few of them are freaky when it comes to this stuff.

Freaky? Sue why not, accurate, not on your life.

I am a pure skeptic and I would consider myself very logical and everytime my family goes to one of the two mediums its like they are reading a book of their life story. Not vague stuff at all but VERY specific. The funny thing is that two mediums I know of are not glory whores rather its tough to even get them to see you.

The you are not a skeptic nor logical

Once again, they are scams and hoodwink people. Not a shred of evidence exists that shows they can do what they claim.

Not one.

[Accountability Now]

The problem is theres thousands of people making these kind of claims, and every single time in history one of them have been asked to prove them, or demonstrate their alledged ability in a controlled environment they have fallen flat on their face.

Theres even million dollar prizes for any psychic than can verify their claims.

Like I said....99% are false and the ones that I believe to be "freaky" and part of the less than 1% do not seek the public eye. One of the mediums has even commented on how this 'gift' is more of a curse and wished she didn't have it.

With that being said....I am not out to prove they are real or not. My anecdotal evidence would never hold up in the Court of MLW anyway! Lol.

[Mighty AC]

Say what you want Guyser but I know that a few of them are freaky when it comes to this stuff. I am a pure skeptic and I would consider myself very logical and everytime my family goes to one of the two mediums its like they are reading a book of their life story. Not vague stuff at all but VERY specific. The funny thing is that two mediums I know of are not glory whores rather its tough to even get them to see you.

I recommend watching some Derren Brown or James Randi videos on YouTube. Both men actually perform and explain the tricks used by 'psychics' and 'mediums'. Kind of like Penn & Teller do with magic. Here are a couple of shortened segments on cold reading by Brown and a Randi documentary covering several topics.

Derren Brown investigates cold reading (7 min)

Derren Brown interview with Dawkins (10 min)

James Randi - Secrets of the Psychics Documentary

[Accountability Now]

The you are not a skeptic nor logical

So I guess you are the judge here on logic then? Is that becasue you are all knowing? Seriously....debates on afterlife and our earthly connection to them have gone on since the beginning of times but all we really needed was for Guyser to step up and set us straight. Any other long standing issues that you would like to put an end to? (Sorry...perhaps your logic doesn't know sarcasm)

The only think logical in this equation is to say we don't fully know. Neither side can be proven or disproven until we die and at that point its a little too late for 'logic' to prevail. Since we don't fully know then its not possible to set a 100% tag to it which is why I have repeatedly stated 99%.

[Accountability Now]

I recommend watching some Derren Brown or James Randi videos on YouTube. Both men actually perform and explain the tricks used by 'psychics' and 'mediums'. Kind of like Penn & Teller do with magic. Here are a couple of shortened segments on cold reading by Brown and a Randi documentary covering several topics.

Derren Brown investigates cold reading (7 min)

Derren Brown interview with Dawkins (10 min)

James Randi - Secrets of the Psychics Documentary

I was able to browse through the videos but don't have time to watch them all right now. With that being said, these videos show no more than what I learned from a university class on Witchcraft and the Occult where we were taught to debunk the same things. I already have a strong basis and skeptism for such parlor tricks which is why I have been so amazed by these recent encounters.

So as I said in an earlier statement...these people are freaky because they either have a real connection or an inate abilty to read people ( the latter being how Derron Brown chooses to characterize them)

With that being said, I will note the massive difference between the mediums that my family has seen and the ones in the videos. The ones on the videos will pan to many people in a crowd and hope that their indirect statements make sense. When they don't make sense, they quickly change the name or the topic to something that does. The mediums my family have seen are all one on one. There isn't thirty people there to 'make it work'. You have one person to say yes or no. Furthermore, the statements this medium makes are not vague but are rather direct. A few examples....your husband will be dead in two years, you will be diagnosed with an autoimmune disease in the next year....not exactly heart warming things to hear but things that actually happened. Any of the TV mediums give that feel good story which isn't the case with the ones I'm talking about.

I have said it a few times already....there are thousands of people who falsely claim to have these abilities and are able to trick people. These are the 99%. But I do believe there are few people out there that either have a connection to an afterworld or some extra earthly integlligence that allows them to see such things. Perhaps these few are humans from the future who have invented time travel and come back. I don't know but I also doubt anyone who says they know for sure!

[guyser]

So I guess you are the judge here on logic then? Is that becasue you are all knowing?

Most of my friends seem to think so, may as well join them?

Seriously....debates on afterlife and our earthly connection to them have gone on since the beginning of times but all we really needed was for Guyser to step up and set us straight. Any other long standing issues that you would like to put an end to? (Sorry...perhaps your logic doesn't know sarcasm)

There is no afterlife, never was. Thats one.

When the cops say "there are no points assigned to this ticket so no insurance hassles" tell them wtf are you saying that for? Thats two !

In could list more .

The only think logical in this equation is to say we don't fully know.

We do fully know.

Psychics are full of crap. Always were.

[Bonam]

Like I said....99% are false and the ones that I believe to be "freaky" and part of the less than 1% do not seek the public eye. One of the mediums has even commented on how this 'gift' is more of a curse and wished she didn't have it.

That's cause everyone knows that's what wizards, sorcerers, prophets, etc are supposed to say. Ever read any fantasy books? The magical hero ALWAYS says the gift is more of a curse and wishes he/she didn't have it, often before later in the story reconciling themselves with who they truly are.

[Bonam]

A few examples....your husband will be dead in two years, you will be diagnosed with an autoimmune disease in the next year....not exactly heart warming things to hear but things that actually happened.

How old of a person were those statements made to? How old was the husband? What was his state of health at the time? Often times such statements are a safe bet, and you only need to make statements that have a fairly high probability of coming true to hoodwink most people.

[carepov]

It's that religious belief I am referring to. I'm sure most believers are skeptical enough to question an email claiming they have won a foreign lottery and need to put up a $5,000 processing fee in order to receive their 2 million (say it like Dr. Evil) Euro prize. Some believers have even questioned some of the scriptures and decided that they are just allegorical or fictional. That's great...but why does the critical thinking stop there?

They don't question their belief in a magical, undetectable, overlord, that exists outside of space time. An omnipotent being that somehow requires humans to do its bidding, and can't even manage to create any evidence its own existence. What's worse is they are taught that believing in this magic being without evidence is a positive thing to do. In fact, the magic man will reward you with an afterlife in paradise for believing in him without evidence. Oh yeah, and he'll punish you with an eternity of torture, if you do not believe in him without evidence.....but he loves you.

On paper even the lottery scam seems more plausible. I guess that's why most believers have to be indoctrinated as children.

IMO, a very small percentage of religious people have beleifs anywhere close to what you describe.

[Accountability Now]

How old of a person were those statements made to? How old was the husband? What was his state of health at the time? Often times such statements are a safe bet, and you only need to make statements that have a fairly high probability of coming true to hoodwink most people.

The guy was 30 years old, no health problems and was killed at a house party. You feel like making that call? My point is that the other 99% will make vague claims that are usually feel good statements....you are going to come into money, you will have a big change, etc. Who wants to hear devasting news that is this specific? Who could have predicted that? The 'freaky' part is that she has been accurate on a number of other assessments or predictions that were just as direct.

I have no intention of trying to prove anything to you guys. I understand that reason for skeptism as I was that same skeptic 5 years ago and I am still highly skeptical when it comes to these situations. However I can't explain this lady no matter how hard I try. As such I am forced to keep an open mind about them.

[Mighty AC]

IMO, a very small percentage of religious people have beleifs anywhere close to what you describe.

WHAT?! You believe a very small percentage of Christians believe in a creator god that allows the faithful into paradise and leaves the nonbelievers be tortured in hell? Really?

[Mighty AC]

The guy was 30 years old, no health problems and was killed at a house party. You feel like making that call? My point is that the other 99% will make vague claims that are usually feel good statements....you are going to come into money, you will have a big change, etc. Who wants to hear devasting news that is this specific? Who could have predicted that? The 'freaky' part is that she has been accurate on a number of other assessments or predictions that were just as direct.

I have no intention of trying to prove anything to you guys. I understand that reason for skeptism as I was that same skeptic 5 years ago and I am still highly skeptical when it comes to these situations. However I can't explain this lady no matter how hard I try. As such I am forced to keep an open mind about them.

Too bad you didn't have a recording. I have witnessed a live cold reading that was also taped. I was blown away by the accuracy of the statements while witnessing it live. Then after listening to the audio tape, I was able to see how much the performer got wrong and how the information was actually being provided by subject.

We tend to forget the false statements as the performer searches for information and pulls clues out of us and then latch on to hits. These performers are excellent at taking what we give them and making it seem like it was their hit. That's why I posted some some Derren Brown videos. He does a good job of showing how it's done. Almost everyone that buys into this stuff says the exact same thing you did. "I know 99% of these guys are scammers, but I saw someone that was actually bang on".

[Accountability Now]

Too bad you didn't have a recording. I have witnessed a live cold reading that was also taped. I was blown away by the accuracy of the statements while witnessing it live. Then after listening to the audio tape, I was able to see how much the performer got wrong and how the information was actually being provided by subject.

We tend to forget the false statements as the performer searches for information and pulls clues out of us and then latch on to hits. These performers are excellent at taking what we give them and making it seem like it was their hit. That's why I posted some some Derren Brown videos. He does a good job of showing how it's done. Almost everyone that buys into this stuff says the exact same thing you did. "I know 99% of these guys are scammers, but I saw someone that was actually bang on".

We did have a recording. There was nothing else that was inaccurate. Some other items were slightly more generalized but still a lot more direct that anything I've seen before.

Thanks for trying to rationalize it but the reality is that this woman is just freaky to me. Perhaps one day she will be exposed but until then I'm left in awe of her abilities.

[carepov]

WHAT?! You believe a very small percentage of Christians believe in a creator god that allows the faithful into paradise and leaves the nonbelievers be tortured in hell? Really?

Yes, really.

[dre]

Yes, really.

I thought that was a pretty core tenant of Christianity no?

According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly.

In Christian theology, hell is the place or state into which unrepentant sinners pass after this life. Hell is generally thought to be eternal, and to include both punishment (poena sensus) and separation from God (poena damni).

Although not central to the Christian faith, the doctrine of hell has been a significant part of historical Christian theology throughout its history.

92% of those who attend church believe in hell for unbelievers and unrepentant sinners, and that its a bad enough place to be considered a punishment.

"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

Firey lake of burning sulphur... Sounds just great

Edited September 14, 2013 by dre

[carepov]

I thought that was a pretty core tenant of Christianity no?

92% of those who attend church believe in hell for unbelievers and unrepentant sinners, and that its a bad enough place to be considered a punishment.

Firey lake of burning sulphur... Sounds just great

Your link did not work.

Here are some interesting articles about hell:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-08-01-hell-damnation_N.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll3.htm

Yes, many religious people beleive in hell - but not the hell that you or Mighty AC describe (not to mention all the other beleifs that he falsely pinned on religious people).

Edited September 17, 2013 by carepov

[Mighty AC]

Yes, many religious people beleive in hell - but not the hell that you or Mighty AC describe

Your own links still show a majority of Americans believing in hell with a minority considering that hell to just be a separation from god.

(not to mention all the other beleifs that he falsely pinned on religious people).

Such as?

I find Christian cherry picking to be a fascinating subject. Each sect freely ignores and accepts various nuggets of the 'word of god'. Next they sprinkle in a little creative interpretation and a few man made rules of their own and voila it's made to order religion. "You're own, Personal, Jesus"...forgive me while I break into song.

The fascinating part isn't the fact that humans customize religion to their liking, I mean, it was crafted by humans to begin with. What amazes me is that that the followers can still take it seriously. They still believe it's the word of god and must be adhered to, while happily ignoring the bits they don't like. How is this possible? Could it be that most followers don't read the Bible and instead just get their religion in bite sized chunks from the mouths of preachers?

[Mighty AC]

Happiness was cited as a collateral benefit of religion in this thread. It seems that being part of a large group with a sense of belonging improves happiness. However, a new study demonstrated a link between religion/spirituality and depression. It appears that spiritual beliefs can be tough on one's mental health. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/religion-depression_b_3928675.html

- People who held a religious or spiritual understanding of life had a higher incidence of depression than those with a secular life view.

- Regardless of country, the stronger the spiritual or religious belief at the start of the study, the higher the risk of onset of depression.

- Those with the more strongly held religious or spiritual convictions were twice as likely to experience major depression in the subsequent 12 months.

"Some may examine this study and argue its results suggest that while many might still be looking for answers far and wide, ironically, it could be those less religious and spiritual, who might already have found them."

Edited September 17, 2013 by Mighty AC

[carepov]

Your own links still show a majority of Americans believing in hell with a minority considering that hell to just be a separation from god.

Various polls show various percentages of people beleiving in hell. None of them asked: ``do you believe in a hell where people are tortured``. IMO, many of those that beleive in hell beleive that it is reserved for the wrost sinners (child molestors, mass murderers, etc...)

Such as?

Here are examples of beliefs that you attribute to religious people that, IMO are held only by a small minority:

They don't question their belief in a magical, undetectable, overlord, that exists outside of space time.

An omnipotent being that somehow requires humans to do its bidding, and can't even manage to create any evidence its own existence.

In fact, the magic man will reward you with an afterlife in paradise for believing in him without evidence. Oh yeah, and he'll punish you with an eternity of torture, if you do not believe in him without evidence.....but he loves you.

***

I find Christian cherry picking to be a fascinating subject. Each sect freely ignores and accepts various nuggets of the 'word of god'. Next they sprinkle in a little creative interpretation and a few man made rules of their own and voila it's made to order religion. "You're own, Personal, Jesus"...forgive me while I break into song.

The fascinating part isn't the fact that humans customize religion to their liking, I mean, it was crafted by humans to begin with. What amazes me is that that the followers can still take it seriously. They still believe it's the word of god and must be adhered to, while happily ignoring the bits they don't like. How is this possible? Could it be that most followers don't read the Bible and instead just get their religion in bite sized chunks from the mouths of preachers?

I also find this a facinating subject - and not just for religion. When we are members of a political party, do we support all the policies or just cherry pick those that are important to us. As a proud patriotic Canadians, are we in favour of exporting asbestos to developing counries. Are we proud of the living conditions on Northern reserves.

IMO, most followers are OK with cherry-picking and hold onto the positive aspects of their traditionnal religion while ignoring (or even openly disagreeing with) those aspects where they disagree. I see nothing wrong with that.

Edited September 17, 2013 by carepov

[Mighty AC]

I also find this a facinating subject - and not just for religion. When we are members of a political party, do we support all the policies or just cherry pick those that are important to us. As a proud patriotic Canadians, are we in favour of exporting asbestos to developing counries. Are we proud of the living conditions on Northern reserves.

IMO, most followers are OK with cherry-picking and hold onto the positive aspects of their traditionnal religion while ignoring (or even openly disagreeing with) those aspects where they disagree. I see nothing wrong with that.

We don't treat a party's platform like the word of an omnipotent being, we are all free to agree or disagree as we see fit. That's not the case for believers of a god though.

For example: It is common for many Christians to claim that they love homosexuals as people but cannot condone homosexual acts or gay marriage because the Bible states it is a sin. You and I could simply ignore the Biblical passage and act ethically. However, these Christians feel that equality for homosexuals is against their god's will and are forced into this position.

This is when I wonder if these people are aware that they are already ignoring other parts of the bible? If they are aware then their discrimination is a choice and the religion is used as a scapegoat. My guess is that most aren't aware though. I believe they have learned their sect specific story from preachers who do not dwell on the unsavoury Bible bits they have chosen to ignore.

However, this choice issue is a bigger moral problem for church big wigs. These people are very aware that they cherry pick from the Bible and that discrimination is their choice, not their god's.