Egypt & Syria - Three Thoughts

[Shady]

Obama didn't do anything to facilitate the removal of Mubarak unlike with Libya.

Lessons learned with Syria because the West (other than Russia who's quasi-West) has let that war fester for awhile.

You're incorrect. The Obama administration worked behind the scenes and negotiated Mubarek's resignation. After Obama stated publicly that he needs to go. The powder keg that were now seeing is at the hands of the inept and Ill-prepared Barack Obama.

[eyeball]

So we're not meddling enough? Or had we not been meddling, there would be peace throughout the Middle East? Or what?

No where near enough in some ways, friends don't or shouldn't let friends diddle, but we did anyway.

Anything could have happened back in the day had the world just let sleeping dogs lay. But that's the thing it would have happened back in the day. The world now is in just too stupid and depleted a place to expect nothing less than even worse consequences.

Edited August 19, 2013 by eyeball

[Shady]

The uprising was in full swing, Mubarak's ouster was a given...which is why Obama offered his politically-convenient response.For someone who thinks the "blame the West" mentality is some sort of perversion, you sure indulge in it a lot, Shady...so long as those you misperceive as "the left" are in power.

Nope. It was far from a given. Obama certainly nudged it further along though.

[bleeding heart]

Why do you blame the West for everything?

[DogOnPorch]

No where near enough in some ways, friends don't or shouldn't let friends diddle, but we did anyway.

Anything could have happened back in the day had the world just let sleeping dogs lay. But that's the thing it would have happened back in the day. The world now is in just too stupid and depleted a place to expect nothing less than even worse consequences.

Future irony will be Mubarak going right back on the President's seat. But, a lot of folks fell for that cheap-suit serenader, Morsi...the so-called mild choice. The current irony is seeing US supplied M1 Abrams 'keeping the peace' in Egypt's cities.

[Rue]

It's difficult to have a debate with someone who sees things through bigotry and contempt and who has very little knowledge of what is actually happening.

In your usual motus operandi of calling others wrong and you right and dividing all positions on this forum as to those you agree with as right and anyone you disagree with as wrong...you once again desccribe yourself.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

Egypt's internal state of chaos has gone on for centuries. This is just the latest series of civil uprisings in a never ending episode of them-all triggered by lack of food.

The Muslim Brotherhood has no knowledge of how to run an economy. In its year in power it suspended free speech, openly urged citizens to attack Christian churches as scapegoats for the failed economy, shut down its last source of income-tourism, and fueled tension on the Israeli Egypt Sinai border.

Egyptians have rioted over and over when there is no food. This is no different.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist faction. It has zero tolerance for any views but its own. It has displayed its hatred of Christians and emancipated women.

The irony is that Syria an Egypt both openly state they will not deal with terrorists whose beliefs are to overthrow their nations. Yet they demand Israel do the very same thing.

The hilarity is watching the H Jones site and its restricted scripts which can not acknowledge the Muslim Brotherhood is terrorist or criticize the Syrian regime but can't criticize al Queda either. Hah.

What a joke. Think he will even acknowledge Hezbollah exists let alone Al Quaeda? Hah.

Someone ask H Jones did Israel prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from runing an economy? Was it the Jew media conspircy he spews that did them in? Hah.

Oh but wait. There is Putin supporting Syria claiming it has a legitimate right to put down Muslim terrorists threatening its sovereignty as Russia does with its Chechnyans while in the next breath he criticizes Israel for doing the same thing.

The irony now is Arab regimes turn on one one another and their citizens in the name of fighting etremist Muslim terrorism while criticizing Israel for defending itself against Muslim extremists.

Then there is Turkey lecturing Egypt just a few weeks after sending its army into the streets to crush people.

Oh but wait H Jones knows the truth why just listen to his song..

oh its the truth

come to my information booth

let me tell you the news

bout dem dare Jews

they created this big sham

against peaceful Islam

see no one shaking their fist

is a Muslim let alone a terrorist

its a false flag manipulation

of the Islamic population

you see dem evil Hebrews

keep giving the clues

with their winking of the eye

another Muslim must die

all caused by a few

of the ones they call Hebrew

oh its true

all the turmoil you see

is created by Jewery

but in the midst of those moans

will come the Messiah Hudson Jones

aka Akim Mustafah El Azid

the Arabian kid

gonna set us all straight

cuz his opinions have such weight

comin soon to your neighbourhood

another conspiracy from Zionist Hollywood

careful don't call them wankers

theyz in fact Jewish bankers

sons of that demon Lucifer

when they aint working as a porno producer

see the world's fate

is like a swollen prostate

its so hard to eliminate

this Jewish state

there is this trickle down effect

from allowing a Jew to elect

his or her own government

instead of remaining a kalif paying rent

if Hitler had only completed his plan

hey presto there would have been no Moishe Dayan

so now we need to keep on lyin

and say its all a result of Zion

H Jones don't look so glum

I only started sayin shalom

Edited August 19, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

now the Syrian children are dyin

but H Jones sure aint cryin

silent as can be

about their misery

see he's not programmed to speak out

about Assad no doubt

or what's goin in in all of Egypt

see that's not allowed in his script

he's only allowed to whine

when its about the Zionist swine

yah he don't seem too shook up

to interupt

and express concern about kids

nope he's only got time for the Yids

well I am hear to rap

H Jones here's a slap

your selective outrage

i'm willing to wage

shows your true colours

to not just me but others

Hanoi Jane and Toyko Rose

now Hudson Jones I suppose

say now Hudson do you eat beef jerky

cuz you might not find it when you move to Turkey

and the beat goes on.....

[-TSS-]

Why are the rebels romantisized in the western media? First in Libya, now in Syria. Is it somehow "cool" to be a rebel? Unfortunately the alternative these rebels offer is far worse than the regime they aim to overthrow.

[Rue]

Why are the rebels romantisized in the western media? First in Libya, now in Syria. Is it somehow "cool" to be a rebel? Unfortunately the alternative these rebels offer is far worse than the regime they aim to overthrow.

TSS who is romanticizing these sob's? Are you referring to certain press? Can you be more specific? Seriously who

do you mean? The press I read is not exactly supportive of either side nor should they be.

I must say this-the rebels or free army whatever you want to call them are made up of many components. Some are no better than

Assad's brutal armed forces, some are in fact civilians trying to overthrow them. I certainly would agree anyone romanticizing Al Quaeda or extremist Sunni factions that are no better than Assad do not deserve any false complements.

On the other hand to even attempt to defend Assad saying there could be even worse than him to me is illogical at this point.

Assad is engaged in chemical warfare against children for phack's sake. He lost anyone's ability to rationalize him for any reason when

he turned on his own civilians years ago.

Herein lies the problem-this double standard. We actually have some people using your argument. Think about it. Its o.k. for Syria to have a leader who uses gas on children because the alternative is worse, but next door in Israel, the same people who defend Assad dare refer to that government as terrorist and immoral? I mean have we all gone friggin mad?

How does the UN remain silent in the face of such actions yet will have no problem spending all its money and time criticizing Israel

on the West Bank?

How many times has H Jones come on this forum and referred to Israelis as Nazis and their government as exterminating Palestinians and now do you hear even a peep about this? Its blatant double standard bull crap of the worst kind and its precisely why Israel

when faced with the criticism of the very countries that remain silent on Syria, can not depend on them to defend Israel if by giving back unsafe borders, it exposes Israel to gas warfare or other terrorism.

You really think Israel would give back the Golan Heights to a country that kills its own children with gas? As it is Israel may be forced

to take out missile sites if this keeps up. It may also be dragged into a war with Syria and Lebanon.

Israel wants nothing to do with Syria or Lebanon but keeps having its borders attacked by both.

Now it has that bafoon in Turkey trying to deflect attention from Syria and Lebanon by making ludicrous accusations Israel was behind the coups in Egypt. Its this kind of madness that Israel lives in the midst of that makes it impossible for it to think it can find people to live in peace with.

No matter who is in charge of Syria they will hate Israel. Now that these chemicals are being used, so close to its population it may have no choice very soon.

What would you do if your neighbour the distance of less than 100 k's away was using toxic chemicals in the air to wipe people out?

Would you sit there?

[Rue]

I do note in the last day or so Obama switched scripts and is now mentioning increasing US naval presence in the region of Syria.

I know the US can't clean up the world but if it was possible, I would welcome their intervention. I know going in on the ground is not an option but surely the UN should have authorized the US and European air force strategic attacks on chemical missile sites.

The US was blasted for deposing Hussein and accused of doing it only for oil and I for one believe Chaney and Haliburton used it to make huge amounts of money and I question the non armed forces who went in as a private army employed by Haliburton and outnumbered the US armed forces and were paid so much more and broke the law and still break the law.

BUT I applaud the US armed forces for taking out a madman who used gas on innocent civilians and fighting these terrorist sob's. Sure I question the politics, but not the soldiers. The private mercenaries and corporate interests yes-but the soldiers on the ground no. I appreciate their efforts and I know they are not a panacea for the world's ills but

a Yank air attack on Syria would be something I would support.

The UN is bankrupt. It had an obligation to order the chemical missile sites taken out and it did not. It sat there silent just as it has over Sudan, Rwanda, Mali, Biafra, on and on. Interestingly it seems it will only speak out when it has something to do with the West Bank but no other incident.

If the Yanks went in and took out the missile sites I would be the first to applaud them. I appreciate though practical reality may stop that.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Rue

[DogOnPorch]

Chemical warfare aside, I've witnessed both sides indulging in horrific torture of individuals and road side executions that would have made a Hutu Interahamwe proud. Neither should be supported and if intervention occurs, anyone carrying a weapon should be a valid target.

[Guest American Woman]

Chemical warfare aside, I've witnessed both sides indulging in horrific torture of individuals and road side executions that would have made a Hutu Interahamwe proud. Neither should be supported and if intervention occurs, anyone carrying a weapon should be a valid target.

Sadly, this is too often what comes to pass.

[August1991]

At least as much our's as it is Russia's fault. It took two to tango in the past and we're all still trying to dance around our complicity and hoping no one will notice to this very day.

At some point, people in the Middle East, and Leftists in North America, will admit that there is no deus ex machina, no Intelligent Design. It's people in the Middle East, including Iran's coup in 1953, who are responsible for this tragic mess.

[August1991]

Why do you blame the West for everything?

IME, when discussing world affairs with young people in North America, they don't discuss the issue at hand. Rather, they translate the international problem as best they can into domestic political terms and then act as fanboys.

Years ago, I understand this when I met American Marxists abroad and realized that they didn't really care about Marx, Mao, Soviet Russia or Red China. They wanted to talk about American politics. Their decision to be a "Marxist" meant simply that they opposed the policies of their country.

Edited August 25, 2013 by August1991

[August1991]

Why are the rebels romantisized in the western media? First in Libya, now in Syria. Is it somehow "cool" to be a rebel? Unfortunately the alternative these rebels offer is far worse than the regime they aim to overthrow.

The North American Left loves outliers who win: the simple underdog David vs Goliath. And understandably, the North American Left is composed of Catholics, ideologically pure Lutherans and Jews. (While I'm making outrageous generalizations, let me throw in enlightened Blacks - for my American readers.)

For each of these groups in North America, it's cool to be a "rebel".

Edited August 25, 2013 by August1991

[August1991]

The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist faction.

I disagree. To understand the Muslim Brotherhood, you have to be Catholic or Protestant and think of the Masons.

[August1991]

Oh but wait. There is Putin supporting Syria claiming it has a legitimate right to put down Muslim terrorists threatening its sovereignty as Russia does with its Chechnyans while in the next breath he criticizes Israel for doing the same thing.

I don't know about Israel but Putin - as a modern Tsar - does not want an Islamic fundamentalist revolt in Turkmenistan, or any other "stan" to Russia's south. (It's kinda like the US President and Mexico... )

[August1991]

After all this, let me add a fourth point to my OP - particularly after the recent car bombs in Tripoli.

It is the 5% (I pick a random number) of the population that can cause utter chaos/disaster for the other 95%. In Syria, we are seeing the fanboys (the 5% of the population) impose terrible costs on the other 95%. (As posters to an Internet forum, we understand the concept.)

The Muslim world today? IMHO, male sexual frustration drives enough young men to do crazy things, and then the other 95% of the population lives with the consequences.

-----

We in North America are civilised, IMHO, because we have never let this fanatical 5%, the fan boys, decide our affairs.

Edited August 25, 2013 by August1991

[GostHacked]

At some point, people in the Middle East, and Leftists in North America, will admit that there is no deus ex machina, no Intelligent Design. It's people in the Middle East, including Iran's coup in 1953, who are responsible for this tragic mess.

Actually the CIA fully admitted very recently their very large role in the Iran coup which resulted in the hostage crisis.

[DogOnPorch]

Actually the CIA fully admitted very recently their very large role in the Iran coup which resulted in the hostage crisis.

What exactly was the CIA's 'large role' in the coup? How did this coup result in the hostage crisis decades later?

[Guest American Woman]

What exactly was the CIA's 'large role' in the coup? How did this coup result in the hostage crisis decades later?

Here's an article about it: The CIA has acknowledged its role, along with the British intelligence, in the 1953 coup that overthrew Iranian Iran's left-leaning Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh.

"Analysts says that the overthrow of an elected government and the consequences that followed led ultimately to the rise of the Islamic revolution and the Iranian hostage crisis—all repercussions that ultimately affected the entire region."

[DogOnPorch]

Here's an article about it: The CIA has acknowledged its role, along with the British intelligence, in the 1953 coup that overthrew Iranian Iran's left-leaning Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh.

"Analysts says that the overthrow of an elected government and the consequences that followed led ultimately to the rise of the Islamic revolution and the Iranian hostage crisis—all repercussions that ultimately affected the entire region."

Don't worry, AW. I know America's role in the 1953 Coup. Some things to consider...

-Pro-Nazi Iran was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union and the UK during WW2. The Brits were fairly nice...the Soviets brutal...as usual.

-The Shah came to the throne in 1941...not 1953 as some suggest.

-After WW2, the Soviets wouldn't leave...wanting a nice warm water port and oil. Not to mention the modern railway straight to the Soviet border. It took over a year to get them out via UN pressure.

-The Iranian military was humiliated by the Soviets. Numerous members shipped to the Gulags, etc.

-The Tudeh Party was pro-Soviet and even tried to prevent the Soviet Union's expulsion from Iran.

-Mossadeq was head of the Tudeh Party...The Iranian military did not trust him.

-The reality of 1953 is that it was a military coup...done by Iranians...with support from the various Western spy agencies. Mossadeq's nationalizing of the oil wells was just the excuse the military was looking for.

That's my understanding of it. But, it's rather comical to view it as a pack of (non-Iranian) James Bonds in trench coats overthrowing a democratically leader...which is how it is now commonly portrayed.

[Guest American Woman]

I figured you would. In retrospect, I suppose you were interested in GH's take on it?

[eyeball]

We in North America are civilised, IMHO, because we have never let this fanatical 5%, the fan boys, decide our affairs.

Your opinion is diametrically opposed to reality. We've been letting our fan boys run our affairs for decades. The only reason our civilization hasn't broken down to the extent it has elsewhere is that we've exported the worst of our fanatics - the diddlers for example - abroad.

I suspect there's still a lot of blow-back coming our way. We'll see how long our civilization bears up under that.