Oklahoma City hit by tornado

[Guest Kenneth]

Oklahoma City a short while ago was hit by a 2+ mile wide f4/f5 tornado causing significant and widespread damage. Prayers go out to the people impacted by this.

http://www.foxnews.com/weather/2013/05/20/oklahoma-braces-for-severe-storms/

[Guest American Woman]

Just came inside so I'm just hearing about this for the first time. Sounds awful. Schools and hospitals were hit. Doesn't sound good.

[kimmy]

A lot of casualties.

I am just barely old enough to remember when the tornado hit Edmonton in 1987. My house only lost some shingles, but some people lost everything. I remember that people from all over North America donated things to the families whose homes were destroyed. It made quite an impression on me, so I want to do the same to help people who've been affected by this.

-k

[Guest Kenneth]

CNN reports 51 dead - 20 of them children...

[jacee]

MOORE, Okla. A giant tornado, a mile wide or more, killed at least 51 people, 20 of them children, as it tore across parts of Oklahoma City and its suburbs Monday afternoon, flattening homes, flinging cars through the air and crushing at least two schools.

I just sat on a patio through a pleasant lightning show and warm thundershower. I can't conceive of 200 mph winds.

Thoughts are with the people of Oklahoma, esp those who may be still be trapped.

[scribblet]

How awful, I can't imagine the devastation and loss of life.

[sharkman]

I just heard this same area suffered through a tornado in 1999 that had winds of 300 mph! And this time a giant tornado up to a mile in diameter, what a tragedy.

[Moonlight Graham]

Thoughts go out to the families. I couldn't imagine how scary it would be, especially for the kids, to be caught in a tornado like that.

[eyeball]

What is the matter with people in tornado alley, why do they keep building things that seem like they were designed to be obliterated? They should be living and working in igloo-like concrete domes - like a Hobbit's building. I think it's been well established by now that standard stick-frame construction literally doesn't stand up to the elements in that part of the world but the realization just doesn't seem to be sinking in.

I just don't get it.

[bush_cheney2004]

What is the matter with people in tornado alley, why do they keep building things that seem like they were designed to be obliterated? They should be living and working in igloo-like concrete domes - like a Hobbit's building. I think it's been well established by now that standard stick-frame construction literally doesn't stand up to the elements in that part of the world but the realization just doesn't seem to be sinking in.

I just don't get it.

Why do fisher persons still go to sea in small vessels that seem like they were designed to be "obliterated" and sunk ?

I DO get it.....

Edited May 21, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Kenneth]

Actually even most small vessels have evolved over the years to lessen the likelihood of the crew being lost - because the vast majority of people who use them aren't too proud to adapt, the number of people now lost at sea has significantly declined.

[Boges]

What is the matter with people in tornado alley, why do they keep building things that seem like they were designed to be obliterated? They should be living and working in igloo-like concrete domes - like a Hobbit's building. I think it's been well established by now that standard stick-frame construction literally doesn't stand up to the elements in that part of the world but the realization just doesn't seem to be sinking in.

I just don't get it.

If someone said that about people that live in remote native reserves that have little connection with the developed world, some would probably call them racist.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually even most small vessels have evolved over the years to lessen the likelihood of the crew being lost - because the vast majority of people who use them aren't too proud to adapt, the number of people now lost at sea has significantly declined.

Sure...they head out to sea with survival suits, GPS beacons, and rafts (maybe), then want the Coast Guard to rescue them. People are still lost at sea on a routine basis.

[Guest Kenneth]

No ship design and constuction has evolved significantly over the years - people who use boats insist on these advancements and if they were not available, the vast majority of people simply would not buy boats and would find something safer to do. Yet when it comes to homes, 19th-century building standards in disaster-prone regions is still perfectly acceptable...

[bush_cheney2004]

No ship design and constuction has evolved significantly over the years - people who use boats insist on these advancements

No....some people who use boats and other small craft at sea routinely take chances because of cost(s) and/or ignorance...some even get drunk while boating. Blaming the victims for building code gaps is misplaced. It is possible to upgrade all buildings, but not very practical:

"It is possible to make your home tornado-proof," said Larry Tanner, a structural engineer at Texas Tech University’s Wind Engineering Research Center. "But it is not very practical ... Number one, it is extremely expensive. Number two, it is probably not going to be very aesthetically pleasing."

"Is it possible? Yes," said Randy Shackelford, a structural engineer with Simpson Strong-Tie, a company that makes high-strength metal connectors, and an executive member of the National Storm Shelter Association. "But it is not a home that anyone would want to live in."

[GostHacked]

Do people not build underground shelters anymore for these types of events?

[eyeball]

Why do fisher persons still go to sea in small vessels that seem like they were designed to be "obliterated" and sunk ?

I DO get it.....

No you don't. To be accurately analogous to Oklahoma your example would have to include entire fleets of boats being sunk only to be rebuilt, head out and sink again. Rinse and repeat is a fave phrase of your's but how often do you do so it until it...sinks in?

[bush_cheney2004]

Thousands of watercraft/boats/ships large and small are sunk each year...in the exact same ways as before. Hell, many sink right at the dock. The Coast Guard is kept very busy rescuing people from such recurring calamities.

The analogy is close enough, and that "only" dozens were killed in Moore after such widespread tornado damage is quite remarkable.

Edited May 21, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

Only one boat sank last year out of the thousands that went out where I live which probably explains why they're closing our coast guard stations.

The numbers of casualties are low due to better warning systems that warn of approaching storms. The same thing has contributed to better boating safety too but it's no excuse for building boats that simply fall apart. Is boating as dangerous as housing in Oklahoma?

I think your analogy is floundering.

[Guest Kenneth]

Thousands of watercraft/boats/ships large and small are sunk each year...in the exact same ways as before. Hell, many sink right at the dock. The Coast Guard is kept very busy rescuing people from such recurring calamities.

The analogy is close enough, and that "only" dozens were killed in Moore after such widespread tornado damage is quite remarkable.

How many of these people are on "homemade" boats and rafts floating up from Cuba or some other Latin/South American country. Even with these included, the number of lives lost in a year would be nowhere near what it was a century ago. You simply have no concept of how atrocious standards were a century + ago -- ships were death traps and went down with alarming frequency. That's why they made such a huge stink about the Titanic being unsinkable - even the wealthiest, who traveled frequently, were always taking a risk when they boarded a ship, hence the assurances of absolute safety. But the things still sank, didn't it...

In regards to your previous post... I'm not blaming the actual victims in Moore, but there is a systemic problem, and there is an underlying "cultural" mindset that seems to inherently undermine or retard progress and innovation. A house that can withstand a tornado would not be unaffordable to most people and would not look much worse than the standard trailer home of which there are so many in the States. And in factoring the cost of these tornado-proof homes one should take into account the potential money (and lives) saved were a serious tornado to strike. The fact that streets would have much less rubble and rescue efforts could be faster and more efficient is also something to consider. But nope guess what we'll see when the next big one hits Moore/Oklahoma City...

[bush_cheney2004]

How many of these people are on "homemade" boats and rafts floating up from Cuba or some other Latin/South American country. Even with these included, the number of lives lost in a year would be nowhere near what it was a century ago. You simply have no concept of how atrocious standards were a century + ago --

More people are still lost at sea each year than are killed by tornadoes...my experience at sea does give me some "concept" of such things. Many of the worst maritime disasters for loss of life have occurred in the past 60 years. U.S. housing construction varies widely throughout the country and local building codes reflect loss experience consistent with risk and cost (economics).

[Guest Kenneth]

Where were these "worst maritime disasters"? Off the coast of the USA - or some over-crowded third-world rust bucket being used as a ferry?

So since you're intent on playing the logical fallacy game, this is my last post on the subject - but please show me how the building standards improved in and around Moore since 1999, because the devestation is telling me that it didn't. I'm assuming that my points about factoring in the "economics" of taking preventative measures simply went over your head.

[bush_cheney2004]

Where were these "worst maritime disasters"? Off the coast of the USA - or some over-crowded third-world rust bucket being used as a ferry?

So since you're intent on playing the logical fallacy game, this is my last post on the subject - but please show me how the building standards improved in and around Moore since 1999, because the devestation is telling me that it didn't. I'm assuming that my points about factoring in the "economics" of taking preventative measures simply went over your head.

You mean like the BC ferry fiasco (lots of people die in ferry sinkings around the world, even in Canada it seems) or perhaps the recent and very modern Costa Concordia going aground/sinking in 2011 ? Both far more preventable disasters, the point of the comparison. But apparently people in Oklahoma shall be held to a higher standard, eh ?

The City of Moore, Oklahoma uses typical building codes with amendments and has a standard "shelter in place" policy seen in many U.S. cities, with storm shelter permits and inspections. The city refers directly to the 1999 EF5 event:

http://www.cityofmoore.com/storm-shelters

Edited May 22, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Where were these "worst maritime disasters"? Off the coast of the USA - or some over-crowded third-world rust bucket being used as a ferry?

So since you're intent on playing the logical fallacy game, this is my last post on the subject - but please show me how the building standards improved in and around Moore since 1999, because the devestation is telling me that it didn't. I'm assuming that my points about factoring in the "economics" of taking preventative measures simply went over your head.

What makes you think that it's possible to have "building standards" that can withstand the force of a EF5 tornado? - nevermind standards that would be feasible?

But since the 1999 tornado, more people have storm shelters or a safe room - and there's a federal program that has paid up to $2,000 of the approximately $3000 cost.

Furthermore, bush_cheney has a point; "Between 1992 and 2007, a staggering 1903 American commercial fishing vessels sank, according to a comprehensive Coast Guard report. As a direct result, 507 people died...." http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/survival/stories/why-commercial-fishing-is-the-deadliest-job-in-america

What is the matter with people in tornado alley, why do they keep building things that seem like they were designed to be obliterated? They should be living and working in igloo-like concrete domes - like a Hobbit's building. I think it's been well established by now that standard stick-frame construction literally doesn't stand up to the elements in that part of the world but the realization just doesn't seem to be sinking in.[/size]

I just don't get it.

I don't get your attitude. There's nothing "the matter with people in tornado alley" that isn't "the matter" with people in many situations/circumstances. People take such risks in many circumstances - by living in areas that are prone to earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, landslides, floods, fires, blizzards, heatwaves, etc., not to mention occupational risks - and yes, that includes commercial fishermen.

[kimmy]

If people only lived in places that were immune to natural disaster, there would be precious few places to live.

In my part of the world, it's forest fires. I don't think a wildfire could penetrate the city far enough to reach my home, but many of my friends and co-workers who live near outlying areas have had to evacuate at some point over the past few years. And yet, they don't live in stone houses...

There is a point where "what's possible", "what's practical", and "what's prudent" intersect, and for most of us, the "practical" axis is a big limiting factor in determining what's possible.

It might be possible for an Oklahoma family to live in a tornado-proof bomb shelter, but it's probably not very practical.

It might be possible for Kimmy to drive around in a collision-proof tank instead of an aging Malibu, but it wouldn't be very practical. And I suspect my chances of being injured or killed in a traffic accident are probably much higher than an Oklahoma resident's chances of dying in a tornado.

-k

{"Nothing ever burns in Bedrock! Everything's made of stone!"

-official motto of Joe Rockhead's Volunteer Fire Department}