Iraq Invasion - America's Shame... 10 years on

[GostHacked]

Why? Because you don't have Americans to blame for poor behaviour?

Well who are you going to blame for this mess?

[WWWTT]

To summarize what I have read in this thread I would say that on one side there are those who feel that this invasion was moraly wrong.On the other,it was justified because the US is almighty and capable.

But that "almighty" reason seems to ring hollow.

The US never goes up against a formidable opponent alone.

Iraq was severely weakened from the first gulf war and years of sanctions and incursions.

Then after months of intelligence gathering from their UN inspector spies,they calculated the risk was worth it.

And bingo,the US walks through and leaves an entire country in chaos.

The US only figured out how to get rid of the "bad guy" and not how to rebuild the country.

It's obvious that the US never cared about the Iraq people.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Please call the "world stage" police and arrest the U.S. Congress and Bush Administration for an "illegal war". Hope you don't mind if drone death bots continue their strike missions in Pakistan, or if we have another "illegal war" with Iran while we wait for the crimes trial(s). Want some more bombs to go with those American made CF-18's ?

Might makes Right………Perhaps the “world” should legally “punish” the United States………..

3 numbers for you 9/11

WWWTT

[DogOnPorch]

Well who are you going to blame for this mess?

The morons blowing folks up in the markets. We're all captains of our own ships. "The Devil made me do it" has been a lame excuse since well before Flip Wilson's Geraldine character said it.

[GostHacked]

The morons blowing folks up in the markets. We're all captains of our own ships. "The Devil made me do it" has been a lame excuse since well before Flip Wilson's Geraldine character said it.

No, ousting a leader and putting in a puppet regime who cannot control the country is what is allowing terrorists to accomplish this kind of thing. The USA helped put this captain in.

[DogOnPorch]

No, ousting a leader and putting in a puppet regime who cannot control the country is what is allowing terrorists to accomplish this kind of thing. The USA helped put this captain in.

A Saddam, himself, seized power in a coup. The world turns.

[GostHacked]

A Saddam, himself, seized power in a coup. The world turns.

Sure we can absolve the USA of any wrongdoing here. Good to know.

[DogOnPorch]

Sure we can absolve the USA of any wrongdoing here. Good to know.

You just seem to fail to understand it's ALL a big game of Risk and there are real winners and losers. WTH do you think life is about? Some betsy version as seen in the other thread? Or law of the jungle with some trappings attached called civilization? What happens when law breaks down in our cities? Let alone elsewhere '3rd Worldish'? That's right...windows get smashed...cars burnt...people hurt...even killed.

[GostHacked]

You just seem to fail to understand it's ALL a big game of Risk and there are real winners and losers. WTH do you think life is about? Some betsy version as seen in the other thread? Or law of the jungle with some trappings attached called civilization? What happens when law breaks down in our cities? Let alone elsewhere '3rd Worldish'? That's right...windows get smashed...cars burnt...people hurt...even killed.

So, we should just accept that countries get invaded for oil under the guise of democracy and freedom?

[Army Guy]

While everyone loves to piont fingers at our southern neibors (as it is a sport, with equipment and refs,) at being the worlds policemen and in doing that job ,yes they make some mistakes....But then again who else is going to do the job if not the US....Unless your saying we can live with Sadam, or the taliban, North Korea,the list goes on and on and on....Can we bury our heads in the sand and wait for it to hit our shores......

When do we stand up and say ok dick head, you've crossed the line....when is it we can squash them like a bug.....Someone needs to act and hold the line....and while we do not have to agree all of the time, deep down we are glad they did, and still do....Because reading some posts here it's like we would like the US to step down, stop being that policemen....

Frankly i really don't understand why they the US has done it for so long, with all the crap they get and take, and what little return they get from the rest of the world....i'd have told them to stuff it along time ago....forcing them to fend for themselfs...Have other nations put trillions into the war machine....and living high on the hog...

Edited March 19, 2013 by Army Guy

[GostHacked]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/waldman-media-iraq/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

The campaign to sell the Iraq War was a carefully planned and skillfully executed propaganda effort, and it succeeded because so many journalists and news outlets went along for the ride.

To be fair to the news media, they were up against an administration using diabolically clever techniques. To take just one example, in the fall of 2002, the administration leaked a story to The New York Times' Judith Miller claiming that Iraq had purchased aluminum tubes clearly intended for use in centrifuges to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.

The truth, as we later found out, was that there was no Iraqi nuclear program, and the tubes in question would have been virtually useless for one. They were meant for conventional rockets. But the administration knew the exclusive would be too juicy for Miller to pass up. Her credulous account, passing all the administration's false claims on as a "scoop," appeared on the Times front page on September 8.

Vice President Dick Cheney then went on "Meet the Press" that very day and said, "It's now public that in fact he has been seeking to acquire, and we have been able to intercept and prevent him from acquiring, through this particular channel, the kinds of tubes that are necessary to build a centrifuge." So the administration planted a false story in the Times, then cited the false story on NBC, using the Times' imprimatur to bolster its credibility. That is some Jedi-level media manipulation.

I don't think Cheney was a Jedi, as he practiced the Dark Side of the force. Darth Cheney?

This opinion piece eludes to the media being complicit in putting forth what the Bush Regime wanted. But at the same time the Bush Regime was also being quite deceitful in telling the media what is what. Propaganda through and through.

Edited March 19, 2013 by GostHacked

[bush_cheney2004]

...Frankly i really don't understand why they the US has done it for so long, with all the crap they get and take, and what little return they get from the rest of the world....i'd have told them to stuff it along time ago....forcing them to fend for themselfs...Have other nations put trillions into the war machine....and living high on the hog...

Good points, and the historical reason is that isolationism (outside of the Americas) proved to be quite problematic. The Americans wanted nothing to do with the great world wars save for making a few bucks, but that didn't work out. Mother Britain was dethroned, and Canada finds itself next to the world's reigning superpower and beat cop, cursing its selfish might, but loving the export trade (and television programming).

Edited March 19, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

So, we should just accept that countries get invaded for oil under the guise of democracy and freedom?

What did I say in the previous post...? Go look...

[GostHacked]

What did I say in the previous post...? Go look...

You rarely say much. But remember you are either with us, or the terrorists. I am just trying to figure out who the real terrorists are these days.

What is more brutal than a country with a dictator? A country after that dictator has been removed by a foreign government. Maybe the new Iraq can be pitted more against Iran? Seems to be doing the opposite as the current Iraqi government is trying to make closer ties with Iran.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/11/11/271679/iran-fm-urges-closer-ties-with-krg/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/14/iraq-iran-ties_n_1664728.html

"A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example

of freedom for other nations in the region," President George W. Bush told a crowd at the American Enterprise Institute in 2003, a few weeks before he launched the attack.

Ten bloody and grueling years later, Iraq is finally emerging from

its ruins and establishing itself as a geopolitical player in the Middle

East -- but not the way the neocons envisioned.

Though technically a democracy, Iraq's floundering government has

degenerated into a tottering quasi-dictatorship. The costs of the war (more than $800 billion) and reconstruction (more than $50 billion) have been staggeringly high. And while Iraq is finally producing oil at pre-war levels, it is trying its best to drive oil prices as high as possible.

Most disturbing to many American foreign policy experts, however, is

Iraq's extremely close relationship with Iran. Today, the country that

was formerly Iran's deadliest rival is its strongest ally.

[DogOnPorch]

For the record, I didn't think Iraq was a sound move back then...but we were not around on this particular forum. But, America had its reasons. I don't think they'll be 'leaving' in our lifetimes. Call it what you like. Neo-colonialism or any other number of BS terms. There's nothing neo under the Sun, here. Give Thucydides a read if you want examples...

http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html

[Guest Derek L]

"No more Saddam"! Oh really! Then I'm quite sure my OP quote from Darth has special meaning for you, yes? "Might have... at some future time... posed a threat"

.

Sure……….Just as a nuclear Iran may pose a threat in the future…………Or a Nuclear North Korea…….Oh wait, they’ve already threatened a nuclear first strike……….Even during the Cuban missile crisis neither side openly threatened a first strike…….

and you believe deposing Hussein, destabilizing the region, bringing forward increased ties between Iraq & Iran... was/is a good thing? Does your continued Arab Sunni hegemony claim, extend to an eventual Jewish-Sunni alliance against Iran? Are you that much of a dreamer? Will you also offer the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" quip?

Come now, the region was hardly stable with Saddam in power……..With that said, in both the 80s and 1990 Saddam’s regime posed a direct threat to the global economy………Now that Saddam is worm food, it doesn’t.

As to a Sunni-Jewish “alliance”, I’ve no idea what you’re talking about

[eyeball]

Frankly i really don't understand why they the US has done it for so long, with all the crap they get and take, and what little return they get from the rest of the world....i'd have told them to stuff it along time ago....forcing them to fend for themselfs...Have other nations put trillions into the war machine....and living high on the hog...

...forcing them to fend for themselves...as opposed to forcing the US to fend for them?

Would you guys's please get your talking points straight. Either events did force us to commit atrocities or they didn't and we just committed them because we felt like it.

Let us know when you've made up your minds. Thnx.

[Bonam]

To summarize what I have read in this thread I would say that on one side there are those who feel that this invasion was moraly wrong.On the other,it was justified because the US is almighty and capable.

But that "almighty" reason seems to ring hollow.

The US never goes up against a formidable opponent alone.

Why would anyone go fight a "formidable opponent alone"? War is about achieving victory, not honorable dueling with one hand behind your back.

[Bonam]

Frankly i really don't understand why they the US has done it for so long, with all the crap they get and take, and what little return they get from the rest of the world....i'd have told them to stuff it along time ago....forcing them to fend for themselfs...Have other nations put trillions into the war machine....and living high on the hog...

The US gets plenty of return on what it does. It wouldn't do it otherwise. Being the world's foremost military power, far outstripping any rival, and having everyone know it, is its own reward. And waging the occasional little riskless war lets you test out all the latest equipment and tactics and finetune things appropriately. Setting aside any moral, economic, or security reasons, Iraq and Afghanistan have probably been worth it just for the lessons learned about how to fight insurgencies.

[GostHacked]

The US gets plenty of return on what it does. It wouldn't do it otherwise. Being the world's foremost military power, far outstripping any rival, and having everyone know it, is its own reward. And waging the occasional little riskless war lets you test out all the latest equipment and tactics and finetune things appropriately. Setting aside any moral, economic, or security reasons, Iraq and Afghanistan have probably been worth it just for the lessons learned about how to fight insurgencies.

I agree, create the problem to figure out how to solve it. I am not sure the Iraqi and Afghan population understands or agrees with this.

[waldo]

When do we stand up and say ok dick head, you've crossed the line....when is it we can squash them like a bug.....Someone needs to act and hold the line....and while we do not have to agree all of the time, deep down we are glad they did, and still do....Because reading some posts here it's like we would like the US to step down, stop being that policemen....

Iraq posed no direct or indirect imminent threat to the United States... to the world. The UN agreed - so, of course, in doubling down on its hubris, the U.S. Congress decided to sanction its own invasion of the sovereign nation of Iraq.

as for your stated, 'crossing the line'... clearly, Dubya identified that line in a Houston GOP fundraiser - nothing personal, right?

"After all this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

.

[waldo]

And waging the occasional little riskless war lets you test out all the latest equipment and tactics and finetune things appropriately. Setting aside any moral, economic, or security reasons, Iraq and Afghanistan have probably been worth it just for the lessons learned about how to fight insurgencies.

pretty much one of the most callous things I've read in long time - well done! An occasional little riskless training exercise!!! Oh wait... you did offer-up a token nod to moral, economic or security reasons! Yeesh!

(*** depending on 'official' versus 'other sources', the direct impact to Iraq rests with claims that more than 1.5 million Iraqi have been killed, 800,000 civilians are missing, 4 million were forced to exile outside Iraq, with another 2 million forced to relocate internally within Iraq).

[bush_cheney2004]

pretty much one of the most callous things I've read in long time - well done! An occasional little riskless training exercise!!! Oh wait... you did offer-up a token nod to moral, economic or security reasons! Yeesh!

Yes....same as the training experience and hardware updates Canada's CF-18 crews and kit received while bombing Iraqis, Serbs or Libyans.

[Shady]

Iraq posed no direct or indirect imminent threat to the United States... to the world. The UN agreed - so, of course, in doubling down on its hubris, the U.S. Congress decided to sanction its own invasion of the sovereign nation of Iraq.

as for your stated, 'crossing the line'... clearly, Dubya identified that line in a Houston GOP fundraiser - nothing personal, right?

.

Where is it written or stated that when a country violates the terms of an agreed upon ceasefire, that military action can only be used if a country poses a so-called imminent threat?

[punked]

Where is it written or stated that when a country violates the terms of an agreed upon ceasefire, that military action can only be used if a country poses a so-called imminent threat?

I believe some of what you were talking about was written in United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441.