Israel Forcibly Injected African Immigrants with Birth Control

[bud]

it has been determined that it's wrong to do before they were caught. the only reason they stopped was because they were caught and not because they suddenly came to the realization that it was wrong.

[jbg]

Forced birth control is an abuse of human rights for any government. What a bunch of dirtbags.

it's kind of odd seeing jbg defend the ugly practice of forced birth control. considering this is what the nazis did to the jews.

Why not? Their children are certainly educable and can become productive citizens, no? Sounds like racism to me.

So, what are you saying? Israel should only be a homeland to wealthy Jews? All others can enter but only if they don't reproduce?

How do you enforce that really? Do poor Ashkenazi Jews get the same thing? What about educated Ethiopian Jews?

Sounds pretty racist if you ask me.

You are a funny one. On the one hand, you freak out about the Arab "demographic timebomb," yet here you are advocating forced sterilization for Jews. By your dubious logic, they should start sterilizing the Haredim.

Your argument is absolutely disgusting. Sterilizing people is genocide. Sterilizing people to control social "problems" is eugenics. There is absolutely no defence for this and that you would support genocide in this way is unconscionable, especially considering you're a Jew.

First of all I don't know that it is happening. I doubt, were I an immigration or health minister I would ever implement such a horrific policy. And I do mean horrific.

That being said, it is very hard for any family to get ahead if they are both impoverished and have eight or nine children. Israel is an advanced society where education is a key to success. It is very hard for any parent, much less one struggling to make ends meet, to supervise multiple children. Back in the day, Canada's and the U.S.'s "birth control" policy for immigrants was simple; poverty fed disease and infant mortality and low life expectancy held the population of immigrants in check. That was brutal and the modern welfare state ameliorates the harshness of that result.

If one has such a welfare state, as Israel most assuredly does, it is very hard to feed an unlimited population explosion of such an impoverished group. I can understand, without condoning, such a policy. Also, Depo Privera (sp) is not permanent. Or fatal,

Dozens of civilians including many under 18 were found shot in the head in Syria this morning. But, yeah...a story about depo-provera being dished out on the sly is a far more important thing for Mr bud to post about.

Exactly.

[Guest American Woman]

it has been determined that it's wrong to do before they were caught. the only reason they stopped was because they were caught and not because they suddenly came to the realization that it was wrong.

Yet many nations, even when caught, go on doing the wrong thing. Is that truly escaping you? Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what's going on outside of Israel; perhaps then you wouldn't have such a difficult time understanding what I am saying.

[GostHacked]

Absolutely. It should definitely involve their input and consent - and it should definitely include educating them about such decisions.

But it's not without their knowledge or consent.

There were quite a few eugenics programs in Canada in the early part of the 19th century with the aboriginals. All without their consent. Could it still be happening today, I would say yes, but not sure how it would be done in this day and age.

[GostHacked]

First of all I don't know that it is happening. I doubt, were I an immigration or health minister I would ever implement such a horrific policy. And I do mean horrific.

That being said, it is very hard for any family to get ahead if they are both impoverished and have eight or nine children. Israel is an advanced society where education is a key to success. It is very hard for any parent, much less one struggling to make ends meet, to supervise multiple children. Back in the day, Canada's and the U.S.'s "birth control" policy for immigrants was simple; poverty fed disease and infant mortality and low life expectancy held the population of immigrants in check. That was brutal and the modern welfare state ameliorates the harshness of that result.

If one has such a welfare state, as Israel most assuredly does, it is very hard to feed an unlimited population explosion of such an impoverished group. I can understand, without condoning, such a policy. Also, Depo Privera (sp) is not permanent. Or fatal,

Exactly.

Are you advocating for eugenics programs? Are you saying there is a real need for eugenics programs?

[Guest American Woman]

There were quite a few eugenics programs in Canada in the early part of the 19th century with the aboriginals. All without their consent. Could it still be happening today, I would say yes, but not sure how it would be done in this day and age.

I realize that a lot of wrong-doing has gone on regarding the aboriginals, but I seriously doubt that it's still going on today - there would be way too many protests and way too much publicity. I'm sure Canada has learned from past mistakes, too; as I've said, democratic, enlightened nations have a tendency to do the right thing when this type of thing comes to light. We don't always, 100% of the time do the right thing, but when push comes to shove, we are more inclined to do the right thing than many nations who are carrying out atrocious wrong -doings, not caring at all what the rest of the world thinks.

As I pointed out, Israel stopped this practice - there's not a lot to discuss in that regard, other than to comment on how wrong it was - as other countries continue to carry out atrocities with nary a peep from the critics of Israel.

[jbg]

There were quite a few eugenics programs in Canada in the early part of the 19th century with the aboriginals. All without their consent. Could it still be happening today, I would say yes, but not sure how it would be done in this day and age.

And your NDP CCF buddy, Tommy Douglas, was a eugenicist supporter in good standing.

[The_Squid]

And your NDP CCF buddy, Tommy Douglas, was a eugenicist supporter in good standing.

Nice red herring.

This was (is? I wouldn't put it past them) a racist policy that certainly is a human rights violation. What other nations are doing and whom they are killing doesn't make it any less wrong. By all means, start a thread on how horrible it is to decapitate people. When you bring up these straw men arguments you are being an apologist for racist policies in a, so called, democratic western democracy.

[Hudson Jones]

Love the "enlightened" comments by American Woman who tries her best to try to make Israel look good by trying to spin their character into being enlightened, because they 'stopped' it. Like somehow, a western country in the 21st century can be called enlightened after being caught forcing the undesirables to take birth control. Oh yes, they stopped doing it after being caught. That's why they're enlightened.

Iran could use propagandists like that. Maybe they can somehow spin the recent stopping of stoning people into an act of an enlightened country.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[DogOnPorch]

I think it's terrible; that most injections apparently were administered without the women's knowledge or consent is inexcusable. Good to see that this will no longer be happening.

[jbg]

What other nations are doing and whom they are killing doesn't make it any less wrong.

Tommy Douglas to my knowledge never killed any one. He's just yours and GostHacked's ideological soulmate.

By all means, start a thread on how horrible it is to decapitate people.

Well I have started threads on the total disintegration into violence of the countries that surround Israel (link). Let's see you inveigh against those people. And I have attacked beheadings or human cliff tosses (link).

When you bring up these straw men arguments you are being an apologist for racist policies in a, so called, democratic western democracy.

No. I like the "sauce rule." What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[Hudson Jones]

Just so we are clear on the definition of genocide:

The crime of genocide is defined in international law in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/whatisit.html

[jbg]

Just so we are clear on the definition of genocide:

Do you want to pay the social welfare subsidies? Or are you yourself a recipient? From your bigoted, almost "Chretienist" posts it's hard to tell.

[Guest Manny]

<Content deleted by Manny>

Edited April 4, 2013 by Manny

[bush_cheney2004]

Far as I know eugenics was a theory that was in vogue, "popular" at that time and many, many people including political leaders around the world accepted this new theory. It's not really fair to fault specific individuals for believing it, from our more knowledgeable perspective today.

So was segregation, wife-beating, and driving drunk. The National Post describes Canada's amnesia about the "Greatest Canadian" here:

Canadians suffer from a “collective national amnesia” regarding Tommy Douglas’s support for eugenics, likely because they are reluctant to taint the medicare pioneer’s glowing image with unsavoury ideas, suggests a prominent McGill University physician in a new analysis.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/14/tommy-douglas/

[Black Dog]

First of all I don't know that it is happening. I doubt, were I an immigration or health minister I would ever implement such a horrific policy. And I do mean horrific.

That being said, it is very hard for any family to get ahead if they are both impoverished and have eight or nine children. Israel is an advanced society where education is a key to success. It is very hard for any parent, much less one struggling to make ends meet, to supervise multiple children. Back in the day, Canada's and the U.S.'s "birth control" policy for immigrants was simple; poverty fed disease and infant mortality and low life expectancy held the population of immigrants in check. That was brutal and the modern welfare state ameliorates the harshness of that result.

If one has such a welfare state, as Israel most assuredly does, it is very hard to feed an unlimited population explosion of such an impoverished group. I can understand, without condoning, such a policy. Also, Depo Privera (sp) is not permanent. Or fatal,

Exactly.

I know a place where you'd mao-st certainly feel at home.

[GostHacked]

Tommy Douglas to my knowledge never killed any one. He's just yours and GostHacked's ideological soulmate.

WTF are you going on about here? Implying that I support eugenics programs are you?

[jbg]

WTF are you going on about here? Implying that I support eugenics programs are you?

No. Implying that your side of the table politically has in the past. Edited January 30, 2013 by jbg

[GostHacked]

No. Implying that your side of the table politically has in the past,

I am against eugenics. If that puts me on the other side of the table from you then I am ok with that.

[Canuckistani]

Best form of birth control is education and job opportunities for women.

By one estimate, the birth rate for the Hasidic population in the United States was 7.8, versus 3.3 for Modern Orthodox and less for the non-Orthodox population. (Teman Ivry Bernhardt 2011) A more conservative estimate puts the number at 5-6 children per household. (Comenetz 2006)

The Hasidim are exempted from military service and live on welfare. Were they forced to take birth control too, or is it different because they're not black?

[Guest American Woman]

Best form of birth control is education and job opportunities for women.

The Hasidim are exempted from military service and live on welfare. Were they forced to take birth control too, or is it different because they're not black?

Are Ethiopians the only Blacks living in Israel?

Love the "enlightened" comments by American Woman who tries her best to try to make Israel look good by trying to spin their character into being enlightened, because they 'stopped' it. Like somehow, a western country in the 21st century can be called enlightened after being caught forcing the undesirables to take birth control. Oh yes, they stopped doing it after being caught. That's why they're enlightened.

Iran could use propagandists like that. Maybe they can somehow spin the recent stopping of stoning people into an act of an enlightened country.

And I love how you completely discounted the criticism that I had for Israel and instead are going on and on about your false claim that I am "trying to spin their character" into anything at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again - try responding to what I say instead of making it about what you think I am trying to do. As I said, you suck really bad at trying to second guess my intent.

Comments such as yours do nothing to promote your cause. I'm someone who believes that Palestine has a right to exist and I very clearly called Israel out on this practice - yet you chose to go after me personally about something else entirely. You and everyone in your organization on this board does the same thing. Some constructive criticism: you are doing your cause more harm than good. If you are turning me off, if I find it impossible to carry on a discussion with you, dub/bud, et al, what do you think you are accomplishing? You are driving people away from you, not encouraging them to consider your position. Your comments are so obviously biased and skewed that one doesn't even stop to consider that you might be making some points along the way.

[bud]

in one breath, you criticized something that is obviously wrong and cannot be justified (even though, somehow, with great disbelief, jbg did try to do it).

in the other breath, you tried to brush the action aside as one, rare bad deed by israel who, because it is enlightened, stopped doing what it did.

the truth of the matter is that israel is not enlightened. the practice of eugenics is something a truly, enlightened nation would not practice to begin with. the truth of the matter is that they only stopped because they were caught red handed. the truth of the matter is that israel has systematic practices in place to keep out the 'undesirables', whether they are black or arab.

so spare the front; you do nothing but try to spare israel from the criticism it deserves.

Edited January 30, 2013 by bud

[GostHacked]

And I love how you completely discounted the criticism that I had for Israel and instead are going on and on about your false claim that I am "trying to spin their character" into anything at all.

I think what he means that they who changed the laws were not enlightened. They changed the laws because the population did not support it. That may make the people enlightened, but not the government who would have continued the eugenics programs if they were not confronted about it.

[Canuckistani]

Are Ethiopians the only Blacks living in Israel?

I guess when you don't like the question you counter it with another one. Again, why a different policy for the Ultra Orthodox when they meet the same criteria as the Ethiopians?

[Guest American Woman]

I think what he means that they who changed the laws were not enlightened. They changed the laws because the population did not support it. That may make the people enlightened, but not the government who would have continued the eugenics programs if they were not confronted about it.

My comments were clearly in regards to democratic, enlightened nations. Do you honestly think that "the population" is not part of that? Of course it is. As I said, in "democratic, enlightened nations," wrongs such as this are generally corrected when brought to light. That the population won't support it, will in fact protest it, is just proof of what I've said, because in case some here are truly unaware, 'Israelis, the people' are as much a part of "the nation" as "the government" is. That my comments are being made into something else, as the criticism I gave is ignored, and it once again becomes about what Hudson/his ilk claim I am "trying" to do, speaks for them - and it doesn't speak well, which means it ultimately does not speak well for their cause.