Israel Forcibly Injected African Immigrants with Birth Control

[DogOnPorch]

You're talking about something other than what the OP article identified, which was the forcible injection of Ethiopian women with birth control without their full, informed consent. There is a serious ethical problem with that. There are tomes of books written about medical ethics, given the horrific things we did in the mid-20th century here. This is identical to those practices that have been condemned over and over again. Practices, mind you, that were taken to the nth degree during the Third Reich, which the Israelis should be acutely aware of.

So, according to your sources, the women were physically held down and forcibly injected with depo-provera?

[DogOnPorch]

In any case it's a far cry from the medical experiments and horrors of Dr. Mengele, to which Israel haters are all too eager to allude.

Including cyber.

[cybercoma]

So, according to your sources, the women were physically held down and forcibly injected with depo-provera?

According to your post, you don't know how to read.

[jbg]

This practice which was stopped came about because there was a fear Ethiopian Jews would reproduce at high rates straining Israel's social institutions and their ability to assimilate them into Israeli society. Part of that fear was a concern as to an inability to finance housing and provide jobs and certainly another portion could have been fear of a Felashie Jewish population gaining larger numbers than native Israelis.

To paint it is purely racist as Bud has done is typical. His purpose is to use any negative policy of Israel to be able to paint it as a Nazi regime. That is his sole purpose on this forum.

The other point obviously is that these people would not have been better off remaining in Ethiopia. The only other alternative, which many find unappealing but I think is necessary is to trim back the offerings of the welfare state.

Israel suffers from a population explosion of Heredis and other relatively unproductive and/or uneducated Jews. The productive sectors cannot afford indefinitely to subsidize this activity.

Ask yourself how does Bud who is against any Jew having a country of their own suddenly concerned about Ethiopian Israelis? You think he is? Give me a break. He could care less. They are a convenient story to use as a pretext now to call Israelis Nazis but do you think he would have a problem driving them into the sea or killing them if they refused to leave Israel because they are Zionist invaders?

Talk about two faced b.s.

Obviously the sudden concert for a small part of Israel's population amounts to crocodile tears.

There is a real schism in Israeli society between Ethiopian Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Tsfardic Jews,Sabras,Mizrahi Jews that I doubt any of you comprehend. It comes as a result of the fact that Jews come from all races and religions and when you confine them in a tiny place surrounded by people bent on exterminating them they engage in policies to preserve the nation and at times they make mistakes not because they are Nazis but because there are strains on the capacity of the state to absorb refugees.

Part of that strain was no doubt fueled by a sentiment some Israelis have that Ethiopians are different then they and reproduce faster and would threaten their culture.How is that different then what we see expressed in Europe against Muslims or the kind of anti-immigration comments we hear in Canada?

This amplifies my point above. Welfare states tend to suck in people who need or desire to receive benefits. Examples are European or Canadian Muslim as well as Israeli Heredis.

No comment on the exploitation of Bangla Deshis,Pakistanis, Indonesians, Filippinos in the Arab world. No comment on how noArab country allows in any non Muslims or immigrants as citizens and so does not face the problem Israel has to when assimilating cultures.

Rue, this is a bit rich. You have criticized me for making these very points.

I had an Ethiopian girlfriend in Israel. She taught me Hebrew and how to close a wound. She is now a doctor. I know what kind of issues she went through. Its real. Its very real the struggle between Jews of different cultures to assimilate.

That sounds to me like assimilation at work. I am happy to hear about that.

The problem Israel may have been trying to address in other words is common to all welfare states. They lack the means to subsidize unlimited numbers of people and unlimited reproduction among people for whom activities that lead to reproduction may be one of the few affordable means of recreation they have.

[cybercoma]

In any case it's a far cry from the medical experiments and horrors of Dr. Mengele, to which Israel haters are all too eager to allude.

Nor do you evidently.

Nobody said this is akin to the Mengele Experiments.

This does, however, fit the internationally recognized definition of genocide, ratified by UN treaties. Of that there is no denying. It was posted within the first couple of pages.

Full, informed consent is the ethical minimum for medicating individuals or medical trials. Deception is almost always denied in these cases, except where trials are triple-blind and a control group is not being given the treatments. We no longer accept treating individuals, and especially not sterilizing them whether temporary or permanent, without their full and informed consent.

[DogOnPorch]

According to your post, you don't know how to read.

So, in your opinion these Ethiopian women were held down and then jabbed with a needle...all the while reminding their tormentors that they should be acutely aware of how things were in 1942. This is what I'm getting out of you.

Edited February 9, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[Bonam]

This does, however, fit the internationally recognized definition of genocide, ratified by UN treaties. Of that there is no denying.

Sure there is. I deny it. There is no evidence that this was a widespread campaign intended to alter demographics, rather than a few women erroneously given medications whose effects they may not have fully understood.

Full, informed consent is the ethical minimum for medicating individuals or medical trials. Deception is almost always denied in these cases, except where trials are triple-blind and a control group is not being given the treatments. We no longer accept treating individuals, and especially not sterilizing them whether temporary or permanent, without their full and informed consent.

Not sure why you are referring to that, there were no medical trials or experiments here.

[DogOnPorch]

Sure there is. I deny it. There is no evidence that this was a widespread campaign intended to alter demographics, rather than a few women erroneously given medications whose effects they may not have fully understood.

Not sure why you are referring to that, there were no medical trials or experiments here.

As I posted earlier and was ignored...there's a class action lawsuit in Canada against Pfizir for not disclosing the full effects of depo-provera to Canadian women. Perhaps they, too, were held down and injected...

[cybercoma]

So, in your opinion these Ethiopian women were held down and then jabbed with a needle...all the while reminding their tormentors that they should be acutely aware of how things were in 1942. This is what I'm getting out of you.

If that's what you're getting out of me, then there's no point discussing this any further with you because you're simply incapable or unwilling to understand what I'm saying.

[DogOnPorch]

If that's what you're getting out of me, then there's no point discussing this any further with you because you're simply incapable or unwilling to understand what I'm saying.

You can't even admit the connection between giving depo-provera and certain regions in Africa. It's just not important if it doesn't suit your agenda.

[cybercoma]

No. I refuse to get into an argument with someone that thinks I said something about tying people down and jabbing them with needles, when I did nothing of the sort. When they did syphilis trials on blacks in the South during the Tuskegee Experiments, they weren't tying people down and jabbing them with needles. When they sterilized people in mental institutions in BC between 1930-1970, they didn't tie them down and jab them with needles. A person cannot give free consent when the options are be sterilized or return to brutal, famine-ravished, and war-torn country that you came from. Any rational person would take sterilization as the lesser of two evils. However, this is not something a person would choose without the threat of being sent back to hell. It is not free consent. And it damn well isn't this stupidity you're on about with tying people down and jabbing them with needles. Generally, you're an intelligent poster, so I don't know why you're being so blunt about this discussion. But it's ridiculous. So if you're only interested in attacking straw men. Have at it. But I'm not going to sit here and defend something I never said or even implied.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh...so they WEREN'T forced to take depo-provera. Now we're getting somewhere. Any luck figuring out the connection between regions with a certain infamous blood disorder and depo-provera?

[cybercoma]

Holy crap. Forget it, DoP. Just because they weren't "tied down and jabbed with needles" doesn't mean they weren't "forced." I already defined the force that was being used in the last post. Go back and give it a read. If you're still having a hard time, get someone else to read it to you. I'm done.

[DogOnPorch]

Holy crap. Forget it, DoP. Just because they weren't "tied down and jabbed with needles" doesn't mean they weren't "forced." I already defined the force that was being used in the last post. Go back and give it a read. If you're still having a hard time, get someone else to read it to you. I'm done.

So now they were forced. Those nasty Israelis. Obviously they wish to be like the German during WW2. And those poor Ethiopian women @ the mercy of those immoral Israeli doctors and health professionals. I'm shocked.

[bud]

It could reveal that some Ethiopian women have more personal choices about such things in Israel than they did in Ethiopia.

As the article I linked to points out (emphasis mine): "while those interviewed for the documentary felt tricked or badly treated, others may

so you're basing your conclusion not on what all these women in the documentary and other cases reported to the israeli government but on what "others may" feel about the birth control?

nice.

bonam is also on board with your twisted narrative. is there a central place, a think tank, that israeli apologists go to, to try to twist, excuse and justify every single diabolic and racist israeli action?

[DogOnPorch]

so you're basing your conclusion not on what all these women in the documentary and other cases reported to the israeli government but on what "others may" feel about the birth control?

nice.

bonam is also on board with your twisted narrative. is there a central place, a think tank, that israeli apologists go to, to try to twist, excuse and justify every single diabolic and racist israeli action?

See...bud's taking that line. Immoral Israelis...doing immoral things to innocent people all in the name of genocide.

[DogOnPorch]

Some facts to ignore...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9437560

http://www.managingcontraception.com/qa/questions.php?questionid=1209

[Hudson Jones]

However, there is no evidence of a mass sterilization campaign to lend credence to Hudson's claims of a 50% birthrate drop being caused by said campaign, rather than the more likely explanation of the general and well documented drop in birthrates in advanced countries compared to third world countries.

If you read the articles that have been posted here you would realize that it's not "Hudson's claim of a 50% birthrate drop", but it's the statistic from the Israeli government. Why the need to try to put into question the 50% drop in birthrate?

Furthermore, the birthrate drop of 50% is in the Israeli Ethiopian community. it's not a comparison to a third world country. That's another piece of misinformation on your part.

The 50% drop in brithrate is in the Israeli Ethiopian community in the past 10 years. meaning that in the past 10 years, there has been a systematic push to reduce the birthrate for Ethiopian women in Israel. This was achieved by forcing them and injecting them with depo-provera. Complaints and reports were first filed over 5 years ago, and now, finally, after this documentary and push from human rights organization, the Israeli government has ordered it to stop.

[DogOnPorch]

Birth rates drop when women are on birth control?? Wow.

[Guest American Woman]

so you're basing your conclusion not on what all these women in the documentary and other cases reported to the israeli government but on what "others may" feel about the birth control?

You are basing your beliefs on what the 35 women in the documentary feel - putting their feelings on all Ethiopian women. You are also basing your conclusion on what "advocates" feel. You think your viewpoint is the only representative one? The women in the documentary spoke for themselves, not all Ethiopian women in Israel. And conclusions are drawn on what they alone said.

"Advocacy groups now claim this decline is the result of a birth control regimen forced upon Ethiopian immigrant women."

It's nothing more than a claim by others that "forced" birth control is the reason for the declining birth rate among Ethiopians in Israel. As has been pointed out, immigrants' behavior often adjusts to that of the country they emigrated to.

nice.

I can only hope you are looking in the mirror when you say that.

bonam is also on board with your twisted narrative. is there a central place, a think tank, that israeli apologists go to, to try to twist, excuse and justify every single diabolic and racist israeli action?

There's nothing "twisted" about it. We recognize that some may not have understood the ramifications, while for others it may be a welcome choice - as you do nothing but demonize Israel, assuming that all Ethiopian women would want to continue reproducing at the rate they would have in Ethiopia, assuming that Israel is practicing genocide against the very people they allowed to emigrate to their country.

As has been pointed out, birth rates in our nations are on the decline - as women get to make more choices. Now you may see that as a bad thing - but I don't.

[DogOnPorch]

You are basing your beliefs on what the 35 women in the documentary feel - putting their feelings on all Ethiopian women. You are also basing your conclusion on what "advocates" feel. You think your viewpoint is the only representative one? The women in the documentary spoke for themselves, not all Ethiopian women in Israel. And conclusions are drawn on what they alone said.

"Advocacy groups now claim this decline is the result of a birth control regimen forced upon Ethiopian immigrant women."

It's nothing more than a claim by others that "forced" birth control is the reason for the declining birth rate among Ethiopians in Israel. As has been pointed out, immigrants' behavior often adjusts to that of the country they emigrated to.

I can only hope you are looking in the mirror when you say that.

There's nothing "twisted" about it. We recognize that some may not have understood the ramifications, while for others it may be a welcome choice - as you do nothing but demonize Israel, assuming that all Ethiopian women would want to continue reproducing at the rate they would have in Ethiopia, assuming that Israel is practicing genocide against the very people they allowed to emigrate to their country.

As has been pointed out, birth rates in our nations are on the decline - as women get to make more choices. Now you may see that as a bad thing - but I don't.

Indeed. As a few sources pointed out to me, some are only too happy to be 'forcibly injected' with depo-provera as hubby doesn't need to know and if they are affected by Sickle Cell Anemia, it relieves many of the painful symptoms. But yeah...I'll hold her still while you get the really big needle. Not that one...the REALLY BIG one with GENOCIDE written on the side.

Meanwhile, back home at the farm...

http://www.bigclassaction.com/lawsuit/depo_provera_contraceptive_osteoporosis_class_action.php

[Hudson Jones]

As has been pointed out, immigrants' behavior often adjusts to that of the country they emigrated to.

Just like Bonam, you are sharing misinformation.

The 50% decline in Ethiopian birthrate in the past 10 years is inside Israel. This decline has happened to the birthrate of Israeli Ethiopians and not Ethiopians in Ethiopia. Which means that there was a systematic effort to control the birthrate of Ethiopians by the Israeli government in the past 10 years. The Israeli Ethiopians' birthrate over 10 years ago was double what it is today, which has to do with the Israeli government's policy.

[Guest American Woman]

Just like Bonam, you are sharing misinformation.

No, I'm not. He's not. You are drawing conclusions, and we are refuting your conclusions.

The 50% decline in Ethiopian birthrate in the past 10 years is inside Israel. This decline has happened to the birthrate of Israeli Ethiopians and not Ethiopians in Ethiopia.

I realize that, which is why I said, "immigrants' behavior often adjusts to that of the country they emigrated to."

Which means that there was a systematic effort to control the birthrate of Ethiopians by the Israeli government in the past 10 years. The Israeli Ethiopians' birthrate over 10 years ago was double what it is today, which has to do with the Israeli government's policy.

Or it means that Ethiopian women are acting on their choice not to have as many children, now that they have options.

Do you realize what the birth rate is in Ethiopia? 43 per 1000 population compared to 10 per 1000 in Canada. You think maybe Ethiopians in Canada are having fewer babies than they have in the past, too? And fyi, the birth rate in Canada in 1984 was 15 per 1000 and in 1960 it was 26.7 per 1000, so why the drastic drop? Is Canada forcing women to take birth control?

[Hudson Jones]

No, I'm not. He's not. You are drawing conclusions, and we are refuting your conclusions.

I realize that, which is why I said, "immigrants' behavior often adjusts to that of the country they emigrated to."

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don't suddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birth control practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

Or it means that Ethiopian women are acting on their choice not to have as many children, now that they have options.

You're basing your comment on hot air and useless assumptions. There is no evidence that Ethiopian women are acting on their own choice. However, there is evidence that a large percentage of them who have been interviewed have said they were forced or coerced into taking birth control.

Do you realize what the birth rate is in Ethiopia?

Who cares? We are talking about the sudden change in birthrate in Israel. Immigration of Ethiopian women have been happening for many decades. This sudden birth rate drop coincides with an admitted government program which the government has said should stop.

And fyi, the birth rate in Canada in 1984 was 15 per 1000 and in 1960 it was 26.7 per 1000, so why the drastic drop? Is Canada forcing women to take birth control?

So you are now desperately trying to equate the difference in birthrate of Canadians in 24 years, which went from 27 to 15 per 1000. A difference of 45% in the span of 24 years. Whereas in Israel, the population of Israeli Ethiopians went down 50% in the span of 10 years. This sudden decrease can be contributed to something the Israeli government has admitted to doing and has stopped doing after pressure from several human rights organizations.

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

In this day and age, no western country would commit such an act. Certainly not an enlightened democratic country.

[Guest American Woman]

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don't suddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birth control practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

Considering the time frame that most Ethiopians emigrated to Israel, a natural drop in reproduction in the past ten years makes sense. There are more than twice as many Ethiopian women in the work force as compared to ten years ago, too. It's not as if Ethiopian women haven't made other changes in their lives or are having drastically fewer children than the rest of Israel - in fact, their birth rate is higher.

Israel took in Ethiopians due to a crisis in their homeland. Do you think they did that because they hate blacks? As I pointed out, Ethiopians in Ethiopia are giving birth at a rate of 43 per 1000 population, one of the highest birth rates in the world. Do you think they continue that practice once they emigrate - and their children, as they come of childbearing age, wouldn't tend to be more in line with the general population of the country they emigrated to?

You're basing your comment on hot air and useless assumptions.

I'm basing my comments on reality. I've shown that women are tending to have fewer babies in developed nations, where they have more choices.

There is no evidence that Ethiopian women are acting on their own choice. However, there is evidence that a large percentage of them who have been interviewed have said they were forced or coerced into taking birth control.

The key words there are "a large percentage of them who have been interviewed," because the number of those who have been interviewed is a very small percentage of the whole. Yet no other criteria is being considered for the drop in their birth rate - it's being assumed that it's all due to all Ethiopian women being forced to have Depo provera shots.

I've acknowledged the wrong doing on Israel's part, but that doesn't mean it accounts completely for the lower birth rate. You, on the other hand, refuse to believe that any other factors could possibly be at play here - even though, as I've pointed out, women from poverty stricken high birth rate countries don't continue the trend in other countries they've emigrated to - and women within these developed nations are also having fewer babies as they have more freedom of choice.

Who cares? We are talking about the sudden change in birthrate in Israel. Immigration of Ethiopian women have been happening for many decades. This sudden birth rate drop coincides with an admitted government program which the government has said should stop.

Immigration of Ethiopian Jews in Israel occurred mainly between 1990-1999: 47% and 2000-2008 - 34%, so 1/3 arrived in the last decade. As I pointed out, there are twice as many Ethiopian women in the workforce now, too, compared to ten years ago. You think there might be some correlation between birth rates and women in the work force? Also, what about the immigrants that arrived between the 1980-1989 influx (19%) - who would now be of child-bearing age along with those who arrived in the early 90's? How does their birth rate compare to past birth rates? As more Ethiopian Israelis are Israeli born, what effect it that having?

We have no actual figures to compare. We don't even know what the birth rate was ten years ago or what it is now. We just have the "50% less" figure. Why is that? I'd like to know how high the birth rate was 10 years ago, and the age that most women were having children. Is it that the women who were having the most babies previous to the past ten years have passed child bearing years?

There are so many unanswered questions as way too many people are drawing ludicrous conclusions, because the idea that Israel would go out of the way to bring the Ethiopians to Israel and then be try to kill off their race is ludicrous at best.

So you are now desperately trying to equate the difference in birthrate of Canadians in 24 years, which went from 27 to 15 per 1000.

I'm not desperately trying to equate anything. I'm simply putting the facts out there.

A difference of 45% in the span of 24 years. Whereas in Israel, the population of Israeli Ethiopians went down 50% in the span of 10 years.

Look at how high the birth rates were to begin with. Most Canadians weren't immigrants from countries with the highest birth rates, yet even within Canada there has been a sharp decline in the birth rate as women have had more choices.

This sudden decrease can be contributed to something the Israeli government has admitted to doing and has stopped doing after pressure from several human rights organizations.

It can also be attributed to other factors, such as freedom of choice. It also fits in with the general trend of a decline in birth rates in our developed countries. The idea that Ethiopians would continue to reproduce at the same high rate as they live in their new country, entering the work force, is rather ignorant, IMO.

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

Again, it's not that sudden considering the time frames - and women do change their cultural practices when the emigrate. You can ignore that all you like, but it speaks volumes of those who flat out refuse to acknowledge anything outside of their 'hate on Israel' mindset. Again, the idea that Israel would try to kill off a population that it went out its way to save is beyond ludicrous - and, ironically, it encompasses a bias that Israel is being accused of.

In this day and age, no western country would commit such an act. Certainly not an enlightened democratic country.

Israel did not commit the act that it is being accused of. No matter how wrong or misguided it was, it's not what it's being made out to be. And yes, enlightened, democratic nations make mistakes too - the difference is that such countries correct their mistakes, as Israel did in this instance.