Israel Forcibly Injected African Immigrants with Birth Control

[jbg]

I am sure they would not have picked eugenics if they knew that was going to happen to them.

take it or leave it, ethiopians? you drip with racist and bigoted ideas.

So you'd prefer these people continuing to rot in Ethiopia? Again I do not support what Israel did but I understand it. There is a huge difference.

[bud]

So you'd prefer these people continuing to rot in Ethiopia?

why should their choice be between staying in ethiopia or not having babies in israel? giving those as options is idiotic and not something an 'enlightened' western country with good moral values would do.

Again I do not support what Israel did but I understand it. There is a huge difference.

it's like saying you don't agree with rape, but you understand it.

stop trying to sneak in another way to try to justify israel's actions. lame.

Edited February 4, 2013 by bud

[Bonam]

People should read the actual article. There was no sterilization and no eugenics. Some women were given birth control as part of a general health package allegedly without understanding the effects. That problem has now been rectified. Big freaking deal.

[Canuckistani]

In some cases, women were first given the drug while still in transit camps; in other cases, it seems women were regularly injected after arriving in Israel. Some women apparently knew they were being given birth control but were told they wouldn’t be let into Israel if they didn’t agree; others report being told the shots were “inoculations.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/28/israel-s-ethiopian-birth-control-story-reflects-a-broader-problem.html

One of the Ethiopian women who was interviewed is quoted as saying: “They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.” It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

The women’s testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel’s Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. “They told us they are inoculations,” said one of the women interviewed. “They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.”

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

[GostHacked]

So you'd prefer these people continuing to rot in Ethiopia? Again I do not support what Israel did but I understand it. There is a huge difference.

Either they rot and die in Ethiopia, or they are victims of eugenics killing off their lineage in Israel. Hmm how does one decide!

But now that Boman has cleared something up, this thread is a dead end.

[Canuckistani]

Again, the same logic why is was needed could be applied to the Hasidim. But of course being Ashkenazim it's not.

[DogOnPorch]

Again, the same logic why is was needed could be applied to the Hasidim. But of course being Ashkenazim it's not.

Again, many women in Canada end up on depo provera without understanding the full ramifications of its effects.

[Bonam]

http://www.thedailyb...er-problem.html

http://www.independe...nt-8468800.html

http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.496519

One of the Ethiopian women who was interviewed is quoted as saying: “They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.” It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia.

I'm guessing most of these kinds of statements are a result of language barrier problems and misunderstandings rather than any deliberate malice. It's very easy as someone who does not speak the language to misunderstand what a doctor is saying. I know my gramma shortly after moving to Canada constantly misinterpreted what doctors told her, making it sound nefarious when really they were just trying to be helpful.

[bud]

wow.

you guys try in different ways to excuse and justify israel's actions.

bonam is now trying to say that we don't understand what they're saying because of language barrier and they really were okay with the whole process. he calls it a 'big freaking deal'. after all the advancements we've done in the west, i can't imagine canada and u.s., now, in this day and age, would ever stoop so low and commit such a disgusting, racist and immoral behaviour.

this is the broken moral compass that jbg, bonam, american woman and many zionists that is the problem. if you need to constantly justify or apologize for immoral and unlawful actions, then you will be seen as such.

Edited February 5, 2013 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

So...questions that should be asked:

Were the women actually forced to take depo-provera or were they prescribed depo-provera?

Are there similar situations anywhere else or is this an Israeli thing? I hear tale there's a class action suit in Canada against Pfizer re: the poorly disclosed or undisclosed effects of depo-provera.

Are there medical benefits to depo-provera perhaps unique to Ethiopian women? In areas with Sickle Cell, it is thought to be the best method of birth control due to its lack of effect on iron levels in the bloodstream....reduced clotting, etc.

Edited February 4, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[cybercoma]

People should read the actual article. There was no sterilization and no eugenics. Some women were given birth control as part of a general health package allegedly without understanding the effects. That problem has now been rectified. Big freaking deal.

Israel is relieving itself on your leg and telling you it's raining.

[jbg]

Either they rot and die in Ethiopia, or they are victims of eugenics killing off their lineage in Israel. Hmm how does one decide!

But now that Boman has cleared something up, this thread is a dead end.

Limiting births for a limited period is hardly "eugenics." As for the (false) choice you pose, the latter is definitely preferable. Much better to have a limited number of children than a horrible death in Africa's endless wars.

[jbg]

Again, the same logic why is was needed could be applied to the Hasidim. But of course being Ashkenazim it's not.

I agree that Hasids and Heredis should not be subsidized the way they are. That population explosion is causing serious problems of its own.

[DogOnPorch]

Limiting births for a limited period is hardly "eugenics." As for the (false) choice you pose, the latter is definitely preferable. Much better to have a limited number of children than a horrible death in Africa's endless wars.

As hinted...look up depo-provera and Sickle Cell. Seems there are unanswered questions that need to be asked before Dr Mengele is dug-up much further.

Edited February 7, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[bud]

jbg.. don't you think that it's time that the hasids and heredis women are injected with birth control?

[DogOnPorch]

jbg.. don't you think that it's time that the hasids and heredis women are injected with birth control?

So...no comment about regions with Sickle Cell and the use of birth control? Didn't think so. Gets in the way of a good rant.

[Guest American Woman]

Good article. It certainly helps me understand the situation better.

Is Israel sterilising Ethiopians? Err, no

The wild claims being made about Israel's birth-control policies show that facts never get in the way of Israel-bashing.

Perhaps it was Haaretz’s unfortunate use of the word ‘practice’ which misled some commentators. The official cited in that paper’s report did not say that Israel has a systematic fertility-control programme among Ethiopian Jews, or that it is mandatory for Ethiopian women to use birth control. The official only acknowledged that Depo-Provera has been administered within that community.

According to the doctor in charge of the medical programme in Ethiopia, ‘injectable contraceptives are the most desired throughout [Ethiopia]. They are easy, culturally preferred, and offer the ability to be on birth control without a woman informing her husband, which is an issue here.’

The Depo-Provera jab is effective for three months and the women have to return to clinics for booster shots, which they do voluntarily because, contrary to what some seem to believe, Ethiopian women can actually think for themselves.

If Israel really wanted to stop the growth of its Ethiopian community, there would be more effective means to do so than administering contraceptive jabs, never mind running large-scale programmes to bring Ethiopian Jews to Israel in the first place.

It certainly sounds as if the situation was blown out of proportion, with evil intent on Israel's part - even as Israel was accepting the Ethiopian immigrants. As the article points out,

As one Haaretz columnist wrote, ‘What the original television programme uncovered is an insensitivity to a traditional culture and imposing Western norms in what likely began as a well-meaning attempt to help families make an easier adjustment to the shock that was ahead of them when they moved to Israel and once they arrived’.

I think the article is very fair and certainly criticizes Israel where criticism may be/is due.

[Rue]

This practice which was stopped came about because there was a fear Ethiopian Jews would reproduce at high rates straining Israel's social institutions and their ability to assimilate them into Israeli society. Part of that fear was a concern as to an inability to finance housing and provide jobs and certainly another portion could have been fear of a Felashie Jewish population gaining larger numbers than native Israelis.

To paint it is purely racist as Bud has done is typical. His purpose is to use any negative policy of Israel to be able to paint it as a Nazi regime. That is his sole purpose on this forum.

For those of you who want to call Israel a Nazi regime for doing this let me ask you this-are you really concerned about Ethiopian Jews. Where were you and Bud when they had to flee in the first place?

Ask yourself how does Bud who is against any Jew having a country of their own suddenly concerned about Ethiopian Israelis? You think he is? Give me a break. He could care less. They are a convenient story to use as a pretext now to call Israelis Nazis but do you think he would have a problem driving them into the sea or killing them if they refused to leave Israel because they are Zionist invaders?

Talk about two faced b.s.

There is a realschism in Israeli society between Ethiopian Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Tsfardic Jews,Sabras,Mizrahi Jews that I doubt any of you comprehend. It comes as a result of the fact that Jews come from all races and religions and when you confine them in a tiny place surrounded by people bent on exterminating them they engage in policies to preserve the nation and at times they make mistakes not because they are Nazis but because there are strains on the capacity of the state to absorb refugees.

Part of that strain was no doubt fueled by a sentiment some Israelis have that Ethiopians are different then they and reproduce faster and would threaten their culture.How is that different then what we see expressed in Europe against Muslims or the kind of anti-immigration comments we hear in Canada?

Bud can point the finger at Israel but where was this humanitarian's concern for Black Sudanese being wiped out by Northern Sudanese Muslims?

Where was and is his concern over the racism against Black Muslims by fair skinned Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Arab regimes importing Sengalese

cheap labour and turning them into slaves?My how the concern is so selective.

No comment on the exploitation of Bangla Deshis,Pakistanis, Indonesians, Filippinos in the Arab world. No comment on how noArab country allows in any non Muslims or immigrants as citizens and so does not face the problem Israel has to when assimilating cultures.

The policy of not properly informing Ethiopian women of the nature of these shots and telling others they could not come to Israel without taking shots raises many legal and ethical issues that challenge the concept of human rights, equality and democracy in Israel.

The intolerance of for example certain Russian Israelis to African and Arab Israelis is a problem. The fact is Israel is amelting pot and it struggles to assimilate its Jews and still struggles to define its identity.

It is not acceptable what it did but to see Bud use it to call Israel Nazis is bullshit.

I had an Ethiopian girlfriend in Israel. She taught me Hebrew and how to close a wound. She is now a doctor. I know what kind of issues she went through. Its real. Its very real the struggle between Jews of different cultures to assimilate.

It was not right what happened and I can tell its still being fixed but before you all jump on Bud's bandwagon ask where were all of you when these same Felashies had to flee?

Are you all the same people who believe they should live as Jews in a Jewish state or are they just a pawn for you to be able to use to piss on Israel?

If you have a genuine concern that they be allowed to live as Jews in Israel and not fear discrimination then fine. Its fair to criticize what has happened to these people. But if you are against the State of Israel existing as a refuge for Ethiopians to be free as Jews, then shut up. You have no credibility. You could care less about them. You only use them a pawn for your anti Israel diatribes.

I know with many of you the concern is genuine and not anti Israeli but anti the practice and it has to be openly challenged. Its not legal, itsnot democratic, it is predicated on racist misconceptions and its decidely anti Zionist. In fact it spits in the face of Zionist principles. Yes it was wrong.However for those of you just using it as another excuse to piss on Israel like Bud you can kiss my Zionist butt (said lovingly).

By the way before I hear too much righteous indignation how about you check out what is going on in Puerto Rico, Africa, Haiti. Russia, Ubekistan,China,Mongolia, for starters.You think there isn't selective state sanctioned birth control being "imposed"on people?

Tell me-when a charity provides birth control to masses in Africa is that unethical or does it only necome unethical when Israel does it?

Look at the comments that started this thread.It suggested birth control imposed on people is Nazi like. Or do you believe its only Nazi like because Israelis did it but when other countries do it, its not.....is the US Nazis for having a similiar program in Puerto Rico?

Many people incuding Planned Parentood influence people to take birth control or have abortions with good intentions thinking they will help them break a cycle of never ending poverty. Are they all Nazis or is that simply reserved for Israels?

Planned Parenthood wasaccused of racism for the same reason Israel now is -for focusing on poor black people. Is that racism? Is it just that? Is it racist to tell poor people to practice birth control? It is a complex issue is all I am saying and these Nazi name calls miss the point. Its a challenge to all democracies to ask how do we engage in social policies that do NOT discriminate. All democracies struggle with this issue and even countries like Denmark, Holland and Norway had state sanctioned birth control and

gave incentives to the poor to enage in it which is a form of coercion probably well intended.

In Canada we did the same thing to aboriginal peoples.

So let me ask you-when does suggesting birth control as a way to manage poverty become Nazi like?

Is it as black and white and issue as Bud portrays it simply because an Israel government did it?

Yah Bud's concern over Ethiopian Jews makes me want to hug him.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

What does the 50% decline in birthrate of Ethiopians in Israel reveal to you about the above article which tries to suggest that this is blown out of proportion.

What does it reveal about the Israeli government who had previous knowledge of this (but of course denied it)?

The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago.

link

Edited February 8, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Guest American Woman]

What does the 50% decline in birthrate of Ethiopians in Israel reveal to you

It could reveal that some Ethiopian women have more personal choices about such things in Israel than they did in Ethiopia.

As the article I linked to points out (emphasis mine): "while those interviewed for the documentary felt tricked or badly treated, others may well see access to contraceptives as a chance of taking control over their family planning. Some Ethiopian women, Haaretz points out, prefer going to a clinic a few times a year for an injection rather than taking pills daily in front of potentially disapproving family members."

Isn't it true that emmigration sometimes results in different choices than one makes at home? Do you think all of the immigrants to Canada are reproducing at the same rate they would have at home - or do you think their choices tend to mirror Canadian society in many instances?

As women have more choices, they tend to have less children. Our societies are not reproducing at the same rate they have in the past.

[Bonam]

What does the 50% decline in birthrate of Ethiopians in Israel reveal to you

That, like people moving to any advanced country, Ethiopians in Israel are able to plan their families, which usually results in less children. You might note that in developed countries, people of all races and ethnicities tend to have much lower birthrates than in the third world.

Of course, such basic facts can be conveniently swept under the rug in an effort to demonize Israel.

[cybercoma]

Are you actually saying they're just choosing to take birth control? Are you kidding?

[Bonam]

Are you actually saying they're just choosing to take birth control? Are you kidding?

Yes, just like most other women in advanced countries, Ethiopian women in Israel also use various birth control measures, as do their male partners, resulting in lower birth rates. Not sure why you would find that surprising. That doesn't negate the possibility that a few women were unknowingly or wrongly given birth control, but broader fertility trends of the Ethiopian community in Israel are entirely consistent with all other immigrant communities from third world countries in advanced nations, and Hudson's allegation that the 50% drop in birthrates is due to some tyrannical campaign of mass sterilization is ridiculous.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

You're talking about something other than what the OP article identified, which was the forcible injection of Ethiopian women with birth control without their full, informed consent. There is a serious ethical problem with that. There are tomes of books written about medical ethics, given the horrific things we did in the mid-20th century here. This is identical to those practices that have been condemned over and over again. Practices, mind you, that were taken to the nth degree during the Third Reich, which the Israelis should be acutely aware of.

[Bonam]

You're talking about something other than what the OP article identified, which was the forcible injection of Ethiopian women with birth control without their full, informed consent. There is a serious ethical problem with that. There are tomes of books written about medical ethics, given the horrific things we did in the mid-20th century here. This is identical to those practices that have been condemned over and over again. Practices, mind you, that were taken to the nth degree during the Third Reich, which the Israelis should be acutely aware of.

Like I said, it's possible a few Ethiopian women were given these shots without their knowledge or informed consent. Such mistakes are more likely to happen when dealing with language barriers as is the case with an immigrant community. Now that the situation has come to light, it's being investigated and any wrongdoing that may have occurred is sure to be put to an end, just as it should be. However, there is no evidence of a mass sterilization campaign to lend credence to Hudson's claims of a 50% birthrate drop being caused by said campaign, rather than the more likely explanation of the general and well documented drop in birthrates in advanced countries compared to third world countries.

In any case it's a far cry from the medical experiments and horrors of Dr. Mengele, to which Israel haters are all too eager to allude.