Signals.Cpl Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 What are x and y ? As in if you commit violent action(x) the consequence for you and the FN is (y). Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Michael Hardner Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 As in if you commit violent action(x) the consequence for you and the FN is (y). So if any violence happens, you will blame the leadership. That doesn't seem so effective, especially if the protests are also against FN leadership. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 So if any violence happens, you will blame the leadership. Why not? They've been fanning the flames with so much misinformation, it isn't even funny. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 So if any violence happens, you will blame the leadership. That doesn't seem so effective, especially if the protests are also against FN leadership. No, if violence happens we blame the perpetrators of the violence but at the same time if anyone in a leadership position decides to support violence they will be excluded from further discussion until such a time as they decide to swear off violence. The point is to bring the people who want to talk to the table while presenting a united front with them against those who wish to bring violence. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 And the best way to deal with the current situation is to inform the FN that if you do x we will do y and make sure they know that it could have consequences for all FN instead of the individuals. The idea is to separate those who want to get their way through violence from those who want to accomplish something through peaceful means and get the FN to do that by themselves instead of waiting for violence to erupt and then trying to deal with it. Combined with improving life for natives. Unfortunately, other than just massively increasing the money we spend, almost everything we might try to improve the lives of natives will be violently opposed by the well-paid native leaders who don't want change if it diminishes either their wealth or authority. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 So if any violence happens, you will blame the leadership. That doesn't seem so effective, especially if the protests are also against FN leadership. The protests are FROM parts of the leadership (the ones who lost the last election) against other parts of the leadership.Basically they're trying to show the ones who won are wimps and quislings for dealing with the government. Oddly similar to the American Republican Tea Party types, for whom compromise is a four letter word. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 No, if violence happens we blame the perpetrators of the violence but at the same time if anyone in a leadership position decides to support violence they will be excluded from further discussion until such a time as they decide to swear off violence. Well, to start with, the leader of the Idle No More bunch, Pamela Palmater, who was the main challenger last election (and lost) should not be allowed to take any part in any discussions, negotiations or even contact with any government body as she is clearly both a racist and an extremist. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 .... Oddly similar to the American Republican Tea Party types, for whom compromise is a four letter word. Completely unrelated to American Republicans, but the usual Yankee reference is noted. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 The protests are FROM parts of the leadership (the ones who lost the last election) against other parts of the leadership.Basically they're trying to show the ones who won are wimps and quislings for dealing with the government. Oddly similar to the American Republican Tea Party types, for whom compromise is a four letter word. That's a weird juxtaposition unless you're looking to America-bash. If anything this is sponsored rather than spontaneous violence. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Argus Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 That's a weird juxtaposition unless you're looking to America-bash. If anything this is sponsored rather than spontaneous violence. The Tea Party isn't sponsored and organized by the Koch brothers and other millionaires and billionaires? They don't hate compromise? They don't turn on those conservatives who dare to deal with the government? They're not absolutists? They're not almost entirely ignorant and shun reality? It's an excellent comparison given they have been in the news so much recently due to the fiscal cliff. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
scribblet Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 Why not? They've been fanning the flames with so much misinformation, it isn't even funny. Yes they have. If they succeed in 'bringing Canada's economy to it's knees' where will the money come from for their funding, how will the poorer communities manage when the there is no money to pay them. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Moonbox Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) You would have to ask Native Americans if they think First Nations got a better deal in that regard. But unlike in Canada, few in the U.S. fail to recognize "Indians" as American citizens. U.S. census data report over 5,000,000 American Indian and Native Alaskan citizens, far more than in Canada. They also have more economic and political power than in Canada. There are about 1.2M Indians or whatever you want to call them in Canada. Considering Canada's population is about 1/10th the size of the United States', it seems that Andrew Jackson and pals were rather efficient in eliminating aboriginals in their territories. Let's ask the ones the American Army 'looked after' in the 1800's to get a fair comparison, okay? Edited January 13, 2013 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Posted January 13, 2013 There are about 1.2M Indians or whatever you want to call them in Canada. Frankly, I think it would be better just to call them "Canadians". Considering Canada's population is about 1/10th the size of the United States', it seems that Andrew Jackson and pals were rather efficient in eliminating aboriginals in their territories. Let's ask the ones the American Army 'looked after' in the 1800's to get a fair comparison, okay? They were very efficient, with no British or Canadian crown BS or pretense about protecting natives from encroachment. It seems that "fair" is always in the eyes of the "crown". Good luck with that...... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Moonbox Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Posted January 14, 2013 They were very efficient, with no British or Canadian crown BS or pretense about protecting natives from encroachment. It seems that "fair" is always in the eyes of the "crown". Good luck with that...... Well murdering/relocating the natives is certainly a good way to makes sure they don't cause any problems later. Nobody is arguing against that! Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 Well murdering/relocating the natives is certainly a good way to makes sure they don't cause any problems later. Nobody is arguing against that! "Murders and relocations" of native people in Canada continued well into the 20th century, one of the most famous being in the "High Arctic" to create human flagpoles. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Moonbox Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) uh huh.... http://history.state.../IndianTreaties Like this right? It only took 10 years for the US to solve their Indian problem in the American south. Just put guns in their faces and move them! Edited January 14, 2013 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
jbg Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 There are about 1.2M Indians or whatever you want to call them in Canada. Considering Canada's population is about 1/10th the size of the United States', it seems that Andrew Jackson and pals were rather efficient in eliminating aboriginals in their territories. Let's ask the ones the American Army 'looked after' in the 1800's to get a fair comparison, okay? The difference is that Canada has a lot more taiga/boreal forest that white people didn't seek to inhabit. Also with the sparser populations smallpox didn't spread as widely up north than in the relatively densely populated south-land. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 ...It only took 10 years for the US to solve their Indian problem in the American south. Just put guns in their faces and move them! Lots of things took longer in Canada....railways....highways...constitution....that's just the way it is/was. The year is 2013, and The Crown has still not settled longstanding treaty disputes and land claims. Might take another 100 years.....why, whenever I ship a package to Canada it takes weeks just to clear customs ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 Lots of things took longer in Canada....railways....highways...constitution....that's just the way it is/was. The year is 2013, and The Crown has still not settled longstanding treaty disputes and land claims. Might take another 100 years.....why, whenever I ship a package to Canada it takes weeks just to clear customs ! It's too easy to say the US wiped out its Indian population. There were wars...some tribes helped...some tribes fought back. Some battles they won... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Moonbox Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) The difference is that Canada has a lot more taiga/boreal forest that white people didn't seek to inhabit. Also with the sparser populations smallpox didn't spread as widely up north than in the relatively densely populated south-land.I'm more concered with the deliberate and sometimes explicit policies for the genocide of the American Indians in the 1800's and before. Also, Smallpox had no more trouble spreading through Canada (particularly Ontario/Quebec) than it did through New England or the American mid-west.Really, this is all irrelevant to the actual thread topic. I was merely responding to bush_cheney's usual trolling. Edited January 14, 2013 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
DogOnPorch Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 Variola is one of the few viruses that has only a human host/vector. It spreads incredibly easily via face to face contact. Stories of it being spread by blankets or horses or pigs or anything else is pure fantasy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Accountability Now Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 The largest difference is that people in the US are quick to stand up for what they think is right. Regular Joe Canadian is just too nice and is worried about hurting people's feelings which is why we are in this mess. When you read our treaties, it is very clear that we made a deal with the Cheifs at that time which gave us the land and the rights to the land in turn for compensation. However, here we are today with them still claiming its their land even though we have overcompensated and bent over backwards. If we would be objective in these matters then it would resolve a lot however we tend to feel sorry for anyone who pulls the race card or anything other sort of disadvantage. Any decision made on these matters always gets favored to the Natives....why? Because we have soft hearts and small brains. Its time the majority of Canada has its voice heard on this. Its time we start looking at objective truths and what is really going to help here. The largest truth that needs to be told is how the FN is playing a major role as a victim. Our goverment needs to stop looking at that and helping these people objectively. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 .... I was merely responding to bush_cheney's usual trolling. ...and responding badly, as the history of First Nations in Canada is well documented. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted January 15, 2013 Report Posted January 15, 2013 ...and responding badly, as the history of First Nations in Canada is well documented. The Canadian FN's were given royal treatment and the American FN's ethnically cleansed. </sarcasm> Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Moonbox Posted January 15, 2013 Author Report Posted January 15, 2013 ...and responding badly, as the history of First Nations in Canada is well documented. and it didn't include anything even as close to as bad as the USA's Indian Removal Act. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
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