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American with questions about Canadian health care


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First, I'm not one of the right-wing extremist nuts who spreads misinformation about Canadian Medicare. I'm aware of the preposterous stories they spread, like if you break your arm you'll wait in the ER for 72 hours in searing pain before you get any help; or if you need open heart surgery, they'll schedule you for 18 months down the road and you'll die waiting. I'm well aware these stories are garbage. But I do have a few honest questions.

1. Is there anything in place to prevent overuse of the system? I've researched other health care systems such as the one in Taiwan. Taiwan has a single payer system a lot like that of Canada. However, the Taiwanese were concerned that making access to health care easy with no out of pocket payments at the time of service might encourage frivolous use. They have an auditor who looks at the stats to see if someone goes to the doctor excessively when he may not be sick. In such cases, the person perhaps really suffers from hypochondria and needs treatment for that. They'll then be referred to a mental health specialist, which is also covered.

Sometimes if I'm sick I choose not to go to the doctor. If I just have a minor cold, a doctor can't give me anything that will kill off the virus anyway, so I just drink orange juice and use over-the-counter cold meds till I'm getter. If I stub my toe or get a bloody nose, I just deal with it on my own since it's not serious. In the US we have strong financial incentives to not run to the doctor frivolously. Of course, the huge down side to that is a lot of people end up not getting help when it is serious and when they absolutely do need help. Our system here stinks, even with Obamacare partially implemented. (Further implementations are scheduled for 2014.) That leads to my next question:

2. Do you find that many Canadians go to the doctor frivolously? Or do most people take care of minor problems on their own?

My last question is about wait times. I'm aware that they exist, but I'm also aware that our lovely right-wing extremists cherry pick situations and use hyperbole for political gain. I suffer from chronic pain in my back and migraines. Despite having health insurance, I've had a hard time getting treatment. My specialist doctor visits are $45 each, and I spend about $75 a month on meds. My cortisone shots in my back are $400 per shot. This is with insurance. If I didn't have it, I would not be able to afford any of this. My insurance is paying 80% and I'm paying 20. When I had a hernia operation, my portion due was $20,000. I'm still paying that off, which makes it difficult to afford those $400 shots. So my final question is:

3. What would the experience of a Canadian with my same health condition be? Would he have difficulty accessing his cortisone shots or affording his meds? Would there be wait times? If so, about how long?

I can't trust Americans with a political agenda to give me quality information about this. That's why I wanted to ask real Canadians. I belong to a grassroots movement named Nebraska Appleseed which has been fighting for health care reform in the US. I was protesting in Lincoln (the capital of Nebraska) when the big health care debates were going on in the US. IMO Obamacare is a step in the right direction, but I am disappointed it doesn't go anywhere near far enough and it has some problems. If you have insurance, you still often have junky policies like mine that cover 80 percent and leave you to pay 20. That 20 percent is very often a lot. It's very often unaffordable. We still depend on private insurance companies who put profit first. Now there are at least some regulations that prevent the most egregious of abuses.

I had way, way better health insurance when I lived in Germany. Germany doesn't use single payer like Canada. It's a multi-payer system where you have the choice between public or private insurance. It's far better than what we have in the US. Whether you're publicly or privately insured, you're 100 percent covered. And everyone is insured in some way.

I honestly would be thrilled if the US adopted either a Canadian or a German-style system. Both systems are way better than what we've got. I just had a few questions about the Canadian system. I hope you don't mind answering them. I'll continue the fight for real health care reform in the US that does better than Obamacare.

There is one very encouraging bit of news, in case you haven't heard it. The State of Vermont has passed a single payer system much like that of Canada. It's scheduled to go into effect no later than 2017. California also passed single payer, but Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed it. However, he's no longer in office. That state may be able to pass it again, and the current governor will sign it. It might be that single payer starts spreading across the country state by state as people see how well it works in states and that it's not some bogeyman.

All right. Thanks for listening.

Edit: I almost forgot #4: Is mental health treatment covered?

Edited by Speedy von Vloppen
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Unfortunately, I'm not going to give all of your questions the depth that they deserve, but I'll give you some brief answers that reflect my opinion only.

1. Is there anything in place to prevent overuse of the system?

There is no oversight to prevent overuse. This is a serious problem in our system because ERs are tied up with frivolous visits. People that have colds or stubbed toes really do show up in waiting rooms. This is one of the things that contributes to wait times. When researchers ask people how long they've waiting in an ER, if you have a bunch of people going there because they don't have a family physician to see over cold medication, then they're going to have significantly longer wait times than the person wheeled in on a stretcher, who will die if they're not seen immediately.

You bring up a good point about overuse. I haven't seen a triage nurse suggest to anyone that they just go to a clinic. If you go to an ER, they will see you. However, they do have posters all over the waiting room that list the walk-in clinics in the city. It's heavily implied, but I don't think they can turn you away. Ontario even had an advertising campaign to encourage people to seek other sources of care (ie, family doctor or walk-in clinics) rather than the ERs.

One of the obstacles to limiting this problem is that doctors are paid by the patient. If they can see a patient they will. I have no proof of it, but I often suspect doctors will see you more often than they need to in order to make more money off the additional visits.

2. Do you find that many Canadians go to the doctor frivolously? Or do most people take care of minor problems on their own?

Tough to say. Everyone's different. Personally, I go to the doctor as infrequently as possible. I've been chastised by a former family doctor for that. He threatened to not see me because I hadn't seen him in 2 years. I asked him why I would go see him if I haven't been sick. He said something to the effect of getting a regular check-up. I find that pointless. Again, I think it has to do with how they get paid.

3. What would the experience of a Canadian with my same health condition be? Would he have difficulty accessing his cortisone shots or affording his meds? Would there be wait times? If so, about how long?

It depends on where you live and whether you can find a family doctor or not. If you have a family doctor, he/she would probably administer the cortisone shots in their office. The visit and the shot would likely be covered by the public-payer (it depends on the province. There is no "Canadian" health care system. Healthcare is a provincial jurisdiction). So you would not pay for your doctor visit and it's very unlikely that you would need to pay for the cortisone shot if it is administered by the doctor in his/her office. You would, however, have to pay for your daily meds. Those are not covered by public-payer medicare. The price, as a rule, will tend to be lower in Canada than it is in the US.

Edit: I almost forgot #4: Is mental health treatment covered?

Sometimes it's covered, sometimes it's not. If you're checked into the psych ward at a hospital because you're on suicide watch or something, it is covered by medicare. If you personally decide to go see a psychologist or psychiatrist, it's not covered. I'm not sure, but I think it may be covered if you're referred by a family doctor though. Again, meds are not covered. So if you're prescribed Zoloft or something, you'll pay out of pocket.

About paying out of pocket. Common things that are generally not covered:

Prescription medication

Dentist visits and cleaning

Optometry visits, glasses, and eye exams

Physiotherapy and chiropractors

These things are usually picked up partially or in whole by supplementary insurance that most employers provide to full-time employees.

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Speedy, keep in mind every province has it's own distinct system. Despite what the US media might tell you, there is no national healthcare system. I can only tell you my experience in Manitoba, others in different provinces may have different experiences.

1. Is there anything in place to prevent overuse of the system?

Almost none. Occasionally, they catch the odd person going to multiple doctors for the same condition just to get more drugs prescribed. That they'll try to put as much of a lid on as they can, especially for addictive drugs like oxy.

2. Do you find that many Canadians go to the doctor frivolously? Or do most people take care of minor problems on their own?

Many do take care of things on their own, but far too many clog up the system for very minor things, and they're almost never turned away. The worst abuses are the ones who go to the emergency room for the aforementioned colds, stubbed toes, etc. We really SHOULD be turning these people away, or at least sending them to some other less urgent facility, but it rarely happens.

3. What would the experience of a Canadian with my same health condition be? Would he have difficulty accessing his cortisone shots or affording his meds? Would there be wait times? If so, about how long?

I've had similar health issues to yours, and I've never had problems seeing specialists, getting diagnostics, or getting meds. Cortizone shots were by appointment, but usually within the week, and always without any cost to me. I've had MRI's and x-rays the same day, and never with more than a week's wait. I can almost always get in to see my family doctor the same day. The only waiting I've ever experienced was to see a surgeon for a consult on an annoying, but non-urgent matter. That did take a few months. General medications are only covered for certain income brackets, seniors, or if your drug expenses exceed a certain level. Most Canadians have some sort of supplemental insurance for medications and other expenses (often through work).

I almost forgot #4: Is mental health treatment covered?

No idea.

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I don't believe this about people going to ER for frivolous things. Who would go there to wait and wait (since you'd be low priority) for something a clinic would only have an hour or two wait. Just makes no sense to me. Some people say we should have deductibles to prevent overuse, but that would deter people from going to the doc early when the condition isn't all that serious. One problem the US has with uninsured people is they only get treatment once their condition becomes life threatening - that's way more expensive.

As for addicts going to multiple docs, that certainly happens in the US as well, has nothing to do with our medical system.

We do have a problem with wait times for legitimate conditions. That's because a decision was made in the 1990's to reduce health care costs by limiting spaces in med schools - we're paying for that now.

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As for addicts going to multiple docs, that certainly happens in the US as well, has nothing to do with our medical system.

You're correct about that. It's definitely a problem here. One solution that looks promising is to create a centralized medical database that every doctor accesses. It's what they do in Taiwan. Every patient has a medical access card that they have to present. It gives the doctor immediate access to all the person's medical records. So if the person got an oxycontin prescription from a doctor in New Taipei and then went to another doctor in Taichung asking for the same med, the doctor would see that he already has been prescribed it. Then if he suspects addiction, he could refer the patient to an addiction specialist, which is also covered. Centralized computer medical records also cut out a lot of burrocracy. You wouldn't believe the hassle I went through trying to transfer my medical records from Nebraska to Idaho. I was in extreme pain, but the pain clinic was refusing to see me because my records just would not show up. I ended up waiting about two months for treatment in Idaho because of the records problem. If any right-wing American claims there are never wait times here, he's wrong. Sometimes sheer bureaucracy causes them.

We do have a problem with wait times for legitimate conditions. That's because a decision was made in the 1990's to reduce health care costs by limiting spaces in med schools - we're paying for that now.

That sounds like a solvable problem. There is actually such a problem of health care costs being too low -- the opposite of what we have in the US. In Germany some doctors were getting frustrated by their wages being too low and the country began to lose doctors to neighbor countries like Switzerland and France where they could earn more. Japan also had some similar problems. The Japanese government sets all the prices for every medical procedure in the country. When there wasn't enough political will to implement increases, some Japanese doctors quit providing some services that they couldn't earn enough money from. The solution in both countries was simply to put more money into the system. Looks like the solution in Canada is the same, and it's simple. Put in more money and increase the number of med school places. You would still be paying way, way less than we pay in the US.

Be very grateful you have such a good system in Canada. Some things could be improved there, but you're still light years ahead of the US. Sometimes I honestly wish when I graduated college I had just left the country -- maybe go back to Germany or move to Canada or France. When I had lousy jobs I didn't even have clunky medical insurance. My treatment for my back pain was to buy a big bag of ice from 7-11 and then to ice my back up, take ibuprofin, and drink too much alcohol. It gave me some relief, but it ended up leading to a drinking problem (but now I'm nearly 3 years sober).

I'll continue the fight against the USA's insane right-wingers who've been scaring people away from universal health care for years.

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....I'll continue the fight against the USA's insane right-wingers who've been scaring people away from universal health care for years.

Of course, as you have a stated personal reason for doing so. That it would impact the choices of other Americans (including some "left wingers"), is secondary. Canadian provinces actually send patients to the USA for procedures because of long wait times and/or a lack of facilities / health care professionals.

Oh...I should mention that I am waiting in the reception area of an HMO hospital while my wife has a routine "over age 50" colonoscopy. The appointment was scheduled in less than two weeks, without any gatekeeper GPs as in Canada, where getting such a preventive procedure can take many months or more than a year.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Does this mean you are NOT one of those Americans who opine "it'll be like the DMV running the healthcare system" ?

Good, always found that a dumb statement.

anyhow, please note for the most part the answers provided are from my experience.

1. Is there anything in place to prevent overuse of the system?

Not sure, but there is some sort of check in the system. I suspect in the overall it isnt that huge a problem. I do think it is a concern and worthy of discussion though.

2. Do you find that many Canadians go to the doctor frivolously? Or do most people take care of minor problems on their own?

I doubt those with a family doc get away with much in the way of frivolity. The Dr would likely put ajn end to that fairly quick. Since many of them are overworked they do not want to see chronic doofuses.

My last question is about wait times.

Wait times are a growing concern and from my standpoint not very well understood by many.

Under the triage system, same as you have, the worst conditions are treated first. And one must wait should the bent pinky finger be last on the list. The problem then is those ones tend to be the loudest about wait times. Not to mention they make good copy for media.

I have found wait times to be no concern when dealing with my illness a few years ago (cancer) and my fathers serious complications were dealt with extremely fast-open heart surgery bypass within a day when discovered, kidney removal and shunts installed almost immediately, that sort of thing.He didnt wait for a damn thing, but then again, he was quite ill. (all for naught tho after 2.5 yrs) Some of the treatment could be called into questions due to age and relative . Again thats the experience I know of

3. What would the experience of a Canadian with my same health condition be? Would he have difficulty accessing his cortisone shots or affording his meds? Would there be wait times? If so, about how long?

If in the same conditions, it can be rough here too. But there are ways to access help, charity, and the like . Same as across the border.

Edit: I almost forgot #4: Is mental health treatment covered?

Honestly...no idea.

Dont forget your system is set up for the reverse re the frivolousness you touched on above. Plenty of Drs are frivolous in prescribing everything under the sun , reasons being they get paid for it, plus they have liability concerns for their E&O. It is kind of a circular thing though. The higher E&O premiums means the Drs prescribe or over prescribe to make up for the premiums. Then they get sued and expand the presciptions to more just to cover their ass. (hard to blame then tho)

Our system also utilizes the over capacity the US system has. The US hospitals like the idea very much since they are paid well for it It makes great economic sense too. No need for every tool in the store, one can rent some of the ones not needed until such time that capacity is there to justify it.This is quite often put forth by some of your residents as some sort of undercapacity of our system , and on the surface I suppose it is, however it exists in your country as well. The accessing of your over capacity is used as a advert on our systems failing but if you look at the issue, it certainly is not and makes great economic sense.

Plenty of Americans come to Canada for treatment, plenty of American Drs come this way to be taught new treatments and experiments. The flow is larger going south but the fact remains there are specialties in Canada that are not surpassed by anyone.

The net loss we had in the 80s-90s has reversed and more Docs are coming home for a variety of reasons. One being the cost to practice (absurdly high)and the another is the improvements put in place have lured them back.

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Wait times are a growing concern and from my standpoint not very well understood by many.

Under the triage system, same as you have, the worst conditions are treated first. And one must wait should the bent pinky finger be last on the list. The problem then is those ones tend to be the loudest about wait times. Not to mention they make good copy for media.

I think that the fact that wait times are not monitored by most people to be a great concern. They make good copy for the media if they increase drastically. If they increase slightly nobody seems to know or care.

Since we don't have an open marketplace with competitive providers, it's incumbent on citizens and experts to monitor the system. They don't. Canada has an unfortunate culture of acceptance when it comes to monopolies, and we have done very little to demand better. This needs to change IMO.

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The appointment was scheduled in less than two weeks, without any gatekeeper GPs as in Canada, where getting such a preventive procedure can take many months or more than a year.

Here's a good example of misinformation from right-wing "Americans." That's not even close to true. I've never had to wait more than a week for a procedure in my life.

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First, I'm not one of the right-wing extremist nuts who spreads misinformation about Canadian Medicare. I'm aware of the preposterous stories they spread, like if you break your arm you'll wait in the ER for 72 hours in searing pain before you get any help; An hour or two maybe, not 72 hours. or if you need open heart surgery, they'll schedule you for 18 months down the road and you'll die waiting. This is actually accurate from what I know. I'm well aware these stories are garbage. But I do have a few honest questions.

1. Is there anything in place to prevent overuse of the system? No. I've researched other health care systems such as the one in Taiwan. Taiwan has a single payer system a lot like that of Canada. However, the Taiwanese were concerned that making access to health care easy with no out of pocket payments at the time of service might encourage frivolous use. They have an auditor who looks at the stats to see if someone goes to the doctor excessively when he may not be sick. In such cases, the person perhaps really suffers from hypochondria and needs treatment for that. They'll then be referred to a mental health specialist, which is also covered.

Sometimes if I'm sick I choose not to go to the doctor. If I just have a minor cold, a doctor can't give me anything that will kill off the virus anyway, so I just drink orange juice and use over-the-counter cold meds till I'm getter. If I stub my toe or get a bloody nose, I just deal with it on my own since it's not serious. In the US we have strong financial incentives to not run to the doctor frivolously. Of course, the huge down side to that is a lot of people end up not getting help when it is serious and when they absolutely do need help. Our system here stinks, even with Obamacare partially implemented. (Further implementations are scheduled for 2014.) The wait times generally keep people away. At least they keep me away. That leads to my next question:

2. Do you find that many Canadians go to the doctor frivolously? No. Most people (that I've seen or that I know) go when they need papers - IE 'proof' of illness for work or school etc. Elsewise they go when they are sick. Or do most people take care of minor problems on their own?

My last question is about wait times. Waiting to see a doc (appt/walk-in etc) takes between 5 minutes and 2 hours. (average 45 mins) In Emerg, you wait an hour to get all registered, you wait an hour to get called in, then you are sent into another area, and wait about half an hour to see the doctor. After that it depends on what you need done. Every time I've been to Emerg this has been the schedule. I'm aware that they exist, but I'm also aware that our lovely right-wing extremists cherry pick situations and use hyperbole for political gain. I suffer from chronic pain in my back and migraines. Despite having health insurance, I've had a hard time getting treatment. My specialist doctor visits are $45 each, and I spend about $75 a month on meds. My cortisone shots in my back are $400 per shot. This is with insurance. If I didn't have it, I would not be able to afford any of this. My insurance is paying 80% and I'm paying 20. When I had a hernia operation, my portion due was $20,000. I'm still paying that off, which makes it difficult to afford those $400 shots. So my final question is:

3. What would the experience of a Canadian with my same health condition be? $0 for doctor visits, Maybe $50 for meds, probably $0 for the shots if the doctor is doing it. You can get insurance for your meds. Your operation would have been $0. Would he have difficulty accessing his cortisone shots or affording his meds? Would there be wait times? If so, about how long?

I can't trust Americans with a political agenda to give me quality information about this. That's why I wanted to ask real Canadians. I belong to a grassroots movement named Nebraska Appleseed which has been fighting for health care reform in the US. I was protesting in Lincoln (the capital of Nebraska) when the big health care debates were going on in the US. IMO Obamacare is a step in the right direction, but I am disappointed it doesn't go anywhere near far enough and it has some problems. If you have insurance, you still often have junky policies like mine that cover 80 percent and leave you to pay 20. That 20 percent is very often a lot. It's very often unaffordable. We still depend on private insurance companies who put profit first. Now there are at least some regulations that prevent the most egregious of abuses.

I had way, way better health insurance when I lived in Germany. Germany doesn't use single payer like Canada. It's a multi-payer system where you have the choice between public or private insurance. I support this, and that makes me a right-wing radical here. It's far better than what we have in the US. Whether you're publicly or privately insured, you're 100 percent covered. And everyone is insured in some way.

I honestly would be thrilled if the US adopted either a Canadian or a German-style system. Both systems are way better than what we've got. I just had a few questions about the Canadian system. I hope you don't mind answering them. I'll continue the fight for real health care reform in the US that does better than Obamacare.

There is one very encouraging bit of news, in case you haven't heard it. The State of Vermont has passed a single payer system much like that of Canada. It's scheduled to go into effect no later than 2017. California also passed single payer, but Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed it. However, he's no longer in office. That state may be able to pass it again, and the current governor will sign it. It might be that single payer starts spreading across the country state by state as people see how well it works in states and that it's not some bogeyman.

All right. Thanks for listening.

Edit: I almost forgot #4: Is mental health treatment covered?

Yes. I have mental issues and get free coverage. If I did not I'd be dead.

Hope that helps. I'm pro public healthcare, but I also live in reality.

Edited by TheNewTeddy
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Here's a good example of misinformation from right-wing "Americans." That's not even close to true. I've never had to wait more than a week for a procedure in my life.

Oh sure.....that's why the provinces have to maintain web sites for wait times to get specific procedures. It's all just a figment of Canada's imagination.

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Oh and on waiting times...

In September 2011 my shrink told me that my mental illnesses make it difficult for me to get hired. Not hold a job mind you, just find one and get hired. So he put me on a waiting list for a social worker.

In February 2012 I started seeing this social worker. We worked though some issues and she thought I was ready for job help. So she contacted an outside agency - cause this social worker is only internal to the hospital.

May 2012, the other persona finally came to see me and said I was not disabled enough for them, that if I wanted to go though them, I need some papers showing exactly what I have. Thus we set up appointments to get that done.

July 2012, I began that process.

September 2012, that process ended. I now "officially" have Autism. I was then referred to another outside source.

October 2012 that person called me. Told me they were going to call me...

November 2012 They called me and told me that I quality for their services. And promptly put me on another waiting list.

I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

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Of course, as you have a stated personal reason for doing so. That it would impact the choices of other Americans (including some "left wingers"), is secondary. Canadian provinces actually send patients to the USA for procedures because of long wait times and/or a lack of facilities / health care professionals.

Oh...I should mention that I am waiting in the reception area of an HMO hospital while my wife has a routine "over age 50" colonoscopy. The appointment was scheduled in less than two weeks, without any gatekeeper GPs as in Canada, where getting such a preventive procedure can take many months or more than a year.

My doctor scheduled me for colonoscopy when I was in my mid fifties. He said they are supposed to have a specific reason but they can easily invent one if they want to get you in. It's not rigidly enforced. Now our doctor has us do a stool test when we get our annual blood work done. If it picks anything up, you are scheduled for a colonoscopy.

As far as prescription drugs go, it depends on the province. BC has a pharmacare program with a deductable set according to your previous years income tax return.

I do disagree with Cybercoma about annual checkups. They can save your life, particularly if they are combined with blood screening.

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My doctor scheduled me for colonoscopy when I was in my mid fifties. He said they are supposed to have a specific reason but they can easily invent one if they want to get you in. It's not rigidly enforced. Now our doctor has us do a stool test when we get our annual blood work done. If it picks anything up, you are scheduled for a colonoscopy.

Fecal Occult Blood Tests (FOBTs) were all the rage back in the 80's. I remember doing them and laughing about not only sending stool samples by first class mail, but wondering who got to open them on the other end. Then endoscopy became cheaper and more widespread, from manufacturing to plumbing. It is now routine for insured Americans to get a colonoscopy upon turning age 50, or sooner if other indicators or risk factors are present. The cost varies from $2000 - $4000, and they are usually done with production line efficiency.

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You're spot on about that, as I know a few Canadians who do just this thing. Despite having insurance from their American employer, they dart back to Canada once every six months to keep there medical cards fully charged.

Except it's illegal. You must reside in BC for at least 180 days per year to be covered.

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